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Inquisitor1138
Captain
Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 603
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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 Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Sorry, I wasn't trying to blow, low or otherwise. My point was, even if a GM here went above and beyond what you are doing, and made all capital ships the same speed with only different fuel capacities, it still shouldn't bother anyone else if they aren't a player in that game. |
Apology accepted. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I sense you are annoyed by the very suggestion that someone else on the internet is altering their game that you are not even a player in. |
Mostly I'm irritated that I'm pointing out an obvious problem that will result from this potential rule change, and I'm being met with quips and mockery.
| Quote: | | "There are alternatives to fighting" |
The most obvious of which is usually running. However, if every Imperial ship (down to the most decrepit rustbucket stuck in permanent patrol duty somewhere in the Outer Rim) can suddenly go nearly twice as fast as before (Space 4 to Space 7), a group of PCs is going to have a very hard time running. Literally every Imperial ship will both outrun and vastly outgun anything that all but the highest level PCs will have access to (as far as light freighters are concerned). That presents a major problem for the PCs, and should be taken into consideration with something other "Nah, it'll be fine."
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | In my SWU, the Emperor approved a faster, stronger, more aggressive fleet. |
The best way to do that is to build newer, better ships, not dump money into upgrading older, outdated ones. Jumping from a Space 4 to Space 7 engine will require a complete redesign of the interior, cutting out whole sections to make room for a larger engine, and other systems (like weapons and sensors) will have to be cut so that the power they were drawing from the reactor can be reallocated to the new engines. Then you have to upgrade all the internal framework to handle the vast increase in added thrust. Sure, you could explain it away with tensor fields and improved inertial compensators, but those are going to take up more room and/or draw more power, too (which will in turn have to be cut from other systems).
Honestly, having them always have been Space 7 makes more sense than having everything upgraded to that standard, because that capability would've been designed into them from the outset. The headaches of a complete redesign and the resources that would have to be allocated would be far better spent elsewhere.
If you're looking to throw a challenge at your PCs, I have several ships in my Index that are definite speedsters, in the Space 7 or 8 range, including one light Star Destroyer (Fractalsponge's Procursator). Another Fractal creation is the Fulgor (Space 8): a purpose-built pursuit cruiser. I also have several that are specifically written as replacements for older, slower ships (like the Vindicator-Class Heavy Cruiser is intended to replace the Dreadnought), or dedicated fleet combatants at the Frigate level (the Ecliptic-Class or the Nebulon A) that perform a different missions than a dedicated convoy escort like the Nebulon B.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Inquisitor1138
Captain
Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 603
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I sense you are annoyed by the very suggestion that someone else on the internet is altering their game that you are not even a player in. |
Mostly I'm irritated that I'm pointing out an obvious problem that will result from this potential rule change, and I'm being met with quips and mockery.
| Quote: | | "There are alternatives to fighting" |
The most obvious of which is usually running. However, if every Imperial ship (down to the most decrepit rustbucket stuck in permanent patrol duty somewhere in the Outer Rim) can suddenly go nearly twice as fast as before (Space 4 to Space 7), a group of PCs is going to have a very hard time running. Literally every Imperial ship will both outrun and vastly outgun anything that all but the highest level PCs will have access to (as far as light freighters are concerned). That presents a major problem for the PCs, and should be taken into consideration with something other "Nah, it'll be fine." |
One - you are choosing to interpret this dynamic as "the players are screwed!" That is not the case, your view is one read of the situation. It is not the only assessment.
Two - i don't like repeating myself; i have largely explained myself on the previous page.
Three - Your experiences with players is likely considerably different from my experiences with players. From my perspective, you're not giving them enough credit.
Four - There are are issues, negative ones for the Empire, from enacting this policy. I have chosen not to list them here for TWO VERY BIG REASONS: 1) i am leaving it to the players to find/figure out these issues so their characters can exploit the situation to their advantage; 2) even if i felt like spilling the beans that is far from the scope of this thread. You are highly intelligent & analytical; some of your assumptions are correct. I have no doubt you'd figure it out sooner or later. I humbly request that when you do, you kindly refrain from sharing the details here or in any forum at all. Thank you.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | In my SWU, the Emperor approved a faster, stronger, more aggressive fleet. |
The best way to do that is to build newer, better ships, not dump money into upgrading older, outdated ones. Jumping from a Space 4 to Space 7 engine will require a complete redesign of the interior, cutting out whole sections to make room for a larger engine, and other systems (like weapons and sensors) will have to be cut so that the power they were drawing from the reactor can be reallocated to the new engines. Then you have to upgrade all the internal framework to handle the vast increase in added thrust. Sure, you could explain it away with tensor fields and improved inertial compensators, but those are going to take up more room and/or draw more power, too (which will in turn have to be cut from other systems).
Honestly, having them always have been Space 7 makes more sense than having everything upgraded to that standard, because that capability would've been designed into them from the outset. The headaches of a complete redesign and the resources that would have to be allocated would be far better spent elsewhere.
If you're looking to throw a challenge at your PCs, I have several ships in my Index that are definite speedsters, in the Space 7 or 8 range, including one light Star Destroyer (Fractalsponge's Procursator). Another Fractal creation is the Fulgor (Space 8): a purpose-built pursuit cruiser. I also have several that are specifically written as replacements for older, slower ships (like the Vindicator-Class Heavy Cruiser is intended to replace the Dreadnought), or dedicated fleet combatants at the Frigate level (the Ecliptic-Class or the Nebulon A) that perform a different missions than a dedicated convoy escort like the Nebulon B. |
Bigger isn't necessarily better nor the best solution. More efficient engines are, especially when they can be made smaller...
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Facing all that you fear will free you from yourself.
 
The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I think it is also worth mentioning that those of us who GM also must consider our players and what they like as well. I don't use a few house rules I really like because my players do not like them. |
Such as what?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | | Bigger isn't necessarily better nor the best solution. More efficient engines are, especially when they can be made smaller... |
Two final points, and then I'll drop it.
1) The preponderance of the evidence in the EU shows gradual, incremental technological development (relative to modern tech advancement in the real world, at least). A leap in engine technology that would allow for a Space 4 ship to suddenly jump to Space 7 in such a short amount of time (assuming 10-20 years for Clone Wars era ships like the Dreadnought) is well outside the norm for the rest of the setting. This applies doubly for relatively recent ships like the Nebulon B; it should already have the more advanced engines if it were going to.
2) Not every ship needs to go that fast. A Torpedo Sphere, for example (a capital ship by definition under your original concept) is a dedicated planetary attack platform. It doesn't need to have Space 6, because its primary targets literally can't run away (in fact, my theory is that it doesn't have an ion drive at all, and relies exclusively on a kinetic impeller which is completely internal and protected, which helps explain why the Sphere is so tough). A Nebulon B is intended as a cheap, mass-produced convoy escort; if its mission involves defending a convoy composed of Space 2 or 3 bulk freighters, then it doesn't need to be much faster than they are.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I think it is also worth mentioning that those of us who GM also must consider our players and what they like as well. I don't use a few house rules I really like because my players do not like them. |
Such as what? |
I was hoping no ne would ask because I have forgotten most of them since they were not liked by the players. One does come to mind and that is the variable damage based on range. It is similar to decreased damage based on range from 1E, except you get +1D damage at Point Blank range, -1D damage at Medium range, and -2D damage at Long range. My players did not like it because it forced them to get closer to their targets instead of just popping off a few shots from the extreme edges of Long range where they were completely safe from shots from shorter range weapons. However, I think I am going to bring that one back anyway... |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:34 am Post subject: |
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SO they wanted the BENEFIT of being at long range, but no downsides?? Sounds like a bunch of whiners.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | SO they wanted the BENEFIT of being at long range, but no downsides?? Sounds like a bunch of whiners. |
They are a good group - and I am sure they will be fine when I tell them the rule is coming back. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | SO they wanted the BENEFIT of being at long range, but no downsides?? Sounds like a bunch of whiners. |
That's not a benefit. That's RAW. He was talking about house ruling to the lower the damage for medium and long range, then going back to RAW damage. And either way, long range still had a higher difficulty.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | They are a good group - and I am sure they will be fine when I tell them the rule is coming back. |
If you want a middle ground option or a temporarily one to ease them back into it, you can always just have the long range damage be -1D. Just a friendly suggestion.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I can more easily agree with -1d at long range, as a 'ease in' to others...
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | SO they wanted the BENEFIT of being at long range, but no downsides?? Sounds like a bunch of whiners. |
That's not a benefit. That's RAW. He was talking about house ruling to the lower the damage for medium and long range, then going back to RAW damage. And either way, long range still had a higher difficulty. |
I was more nagging on them due to the quote "they wanna snipe at enemies at extreme range, so they can avoid being shot at by shorter range weapons"..
Sounds like they want to do to OTHERS< but not allow those others to do back...
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Inquisitor1138
Captain
Joined: 28 Nov 2021
Posts: 603
Location: Hoth. Or Ilum...
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: 8km vs. 17.6 km vs. 19km vs. 19.2 km SSD discrepancy? |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: |
My ongoing New Republic campaign ran off & on from c.1997 to c.2015, spanning ≈20-25 ABY.
Throughout i had 2.2 km Allegiance-class SDs, 8 km Super-class Star Destroyers, 10.1 km Vengeance-class Star Super Destroyers, 17.6 km Executor-class Star Super Destroyers & some homebrew SSDs.....
1 miles = 1.6 km Imperator/Imperial-class SD, Tector-class SD,
1.6 miles = 2.2 km Allegiance-class SD,
2 miles = 3.2 km
3 miles = 4.8 km
3.125 miles = 5.0 km
3.75 miles = 6.0 km
4 miles = 6.4 km
4.5 miles = 7.2 km Ansel Hsiao's Bellator-Class Star Dreadnought
5 miles = 8.0 km Super-class Star Destroyer, Ansel Hsiao's Mandator-Class Star Dreadnought
6 miles = 9.6 km
6.3125 miles = 10.1 km Vengeance, Lord Jerec's SSD, now retconned to 19 km
7 miles = 11.2 km
8 miles = 12.8 km multiple
8.5 miles = 13.6 km ??
9 miles = 14.4 km
9.375 miles = 15.0 km Sovereign-class Super Star Destroyer
10 miles = 16.0 km
10.9375 miles = 17.5 km Eclipse-class dreadnought/Eclipse-class Super Star Destroyer,
11 miles = 17.6 km Executor-class Star Dreadnought
11.875 miles = 19.0 km ??Executor-class Star Dreadnought??
12 miles = 19.2 km Sovereign II-class Super Star Destroyer*
13 miles = 20.8 km Eclipse III-class Super Star Destroyer, only 2 made, both eventually destroyed*
*homebrew SSDs
(List corrected) |
i am taking some of CRMcNeill's advice as i revise & expand this list for my new SWU continuity.
❄ Executor-class Star Dreadnought corrected to ILM's 19 km length.
❄ 15.0 km Sovereign & Sovereign II-class Super Star Destroyers. My OG 12 miles = 19.2 km Sovereign II-class Super Star Destroyer* retcon to the Vader-class.
Adding Assertor-class Star Dreadnoughts
❄ 6.3125 miles = 10.1 km Vengeance, Lord Jerec's SSD, now retconned to 19 km - tbd
❄ Secutor-class Star Destroyer, Length: 2,200 meters, Capacity 3,456 Starfighters (288 Squadrons in 48 Wings); minimum/typical 144 Starfighters (12 Squadrons)
Others tbd...
How does everyone feel about the Vengeance retcon? From 10.1 km to 19 km? I am rather conflicted about it for far too many reasons to get into, but i want to know what everyone thinks and/or feels about it.
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Facing all that you fear will free you from yourself.
The Rancor Pit Library
Bounty Hunting is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Game Mastering is a Complicated Profession... Wouldn't you agree?
Count Dooku: Your swords, please. We don't want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor. |
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