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Problems with General Grevious lightsaber skill?
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ kage.

this boils down to what we all decide is the difficulty for a task.

I am sure joe in australia and you and me have 3 differnt difficulties

Heroci is 35 I belive I am not by the books at the moment.

do we all have the exact same tasks in that range, I find ordinary parachuting to be heroic, I truly belive it is extremely hard...........so I may rate a paradrop more difficult than other may, if paradrop or simialr is not given as exaples.

here is where these extrme skill dice comes in.......


I feel a task should be heroic, other feel it should be "only" difficult.....
I do content crationa dn I stat my villain to match......

Joe read the book and finds these numner way high....and ask how come...
the answer that seems to be something breakingpeople mind or killing them the way they fight is simple........it is how we as players or GM determine how hard a task is ( in the chart) and and when creating content we try balance this to how WE rate things...not the reader.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
@ kage.

this boils down to what we all decide is the difficulty for a task.

I am sure joe in australia and you and me have 3 differnt difficulties

Heroci is 35 I belive I am not by the books at the moment.

do we all have the exact same tasks in that range, I find ordinary parachuting to be heroic, I truly belive it is extremely hard...........so I may rate a paradrop more difficult than other may, if paradrop or simialr is not given as exaples.


While I think these are almost unresolvable topics (see my previous post - or not...) I did want to comment on this one.

It may have just been a throw out example - but the parachuting - for game mechanics we have to differentiate between the difficulty of completing a task, vs the willingness to complete a task.

Many tasks that are not that technically difficult - like skydiving, or one of the greatest fears for people - public speaking - may be indeed have a "heroic" willpower check to get into the airplane or on the stage, but that is the will do do something, not the complexity of the task itself.

Also, in my game - I added and smoothed out the difficulty levels - they are linear - at 5 each level - and I have 10 of them.... which makes it a bit easier for my group.... but that, as they say, might be another story...
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@pakman

I agree it is an usolvable thing I belive.

Solo on Hoth and when he uses the lightsaber untranied is a good example.

I have discussed with both players and GM this scene and some feel that the roll vs moderate is neede to hold and ignite the light saber.
Others felt that it was only when used it you need to go above the moderate difficulty.
others felt that untrained peropel could nit use the weapo at all without some Force point used or similar.
other felt that untranied would have higher difficulte
an yet other felt that only untranied users should suffer full or any difficulty in merely using the weapon.


here is a perfect example of how the moderate difficulty can reasobaly be deemed differnt by different people.

THis again will eventually translate to higher skill dice.

We have the fan write up ( that I currently use) of Shokan, one of several such wrtie ups, and in one the requirements to even lern the form is 7D in lightsaber skill.

Now I am not arguing the reasoning behind this, again I use that system.
But maybe if the jedi/padawan did not suffer moderate difficulty on holding their weapon they would need only a 6D or amybe a 5D in the skill.

so yes I strngly belive that most if not all the stat write ups on NPCS moosk or villains have a lot to do with how the individual crator determines the difficulty of tasks.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mamatried,
Your basis on assigning difficulty is addressed in the RAW in multiple places, including under most skills with examples of what should be what difficulty. This continues to demonstrate that Yourself and the GM you refer to just do not understand how the system works and are not basing the assigning of difficulties on reasonable criteria as presented in RAW. You really need to stop arguing a system that you do not understand and calling it broken. There may be others here who will still be willing to try to help you better understand the system and answer questions - I have tried, but you keep calling it flawed and using extreme and unreasonable arguments so I am done. I really hate doing this, but you are going on my ignore list now as my patience is exhausted.

This is why:
Mamatried wrote:
Heroci is 35 I belive I am not by the books at the moment.

do we all have the exact same tasks in that range, I find ordinary parachuting to be heroic, I truly belive it is extremely hard...........so I may rate a paradrop more difficult than other may, if paradrop or simialr is not given as exaples.

here is where these extrme skill dice comes in.......

Another unreasonable extreme example. I could decide that players need skill checks to brush their teeth and I think is should be a heroic task. It does not make my decision or the difficulty I set accurate or valid, and in fact the examples for difficulties in the RAW would show I am being a poor GM. This is lost on you as you keep making these examples regarding arbitrary difficulty and how everyone is correct because RAW is flawed - when in fact you do not want to read and understand the relevant portions of RAW.

R.E. Your post on Lightsaber use - again, this is covered in great depth in RAW for both Skilled and Unskilled use, as well as in many official sources by WEG, and there is canonical examples in media showing that the examples you are giving are flawed assumptions. So once again this is down to a lack of familiarity with the system and rules.


Edited to add:
In a nutshell - the crux of your arguments are repeatedly either "Because I arbitrarily assigned this excessively high difficulty then extra skill dice are needed to succeed." or "Because the players have attained excessively high skill dice I feel I am justified assigning these extremely high difficulties for even routine tasks."
I have tried repeatedly, across multiple threads, to explain why your premises are flawed, and pointed you back to sections of the RAW to help you better understand and GM. You are unwilling, for whatever reason, and would rather continue to blame the game system.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, I've agreed with everything KageRyu has written, and I think the more you post, Mamatried, it becomes more evident that you just don't understand the basics of the system.

No numbers are "inflated" for PCs. I don't see anything in the rules that suggests that the Difficulty for an NPC should be different from the same task done by a PC.

Common folk of the galaxy don't have to make tough rolls as they live and work, because they are doing mundane things (driving their repulsorcraft to work, for example).

The RAW clearly says "Characters roll their skill dice (or their attribute dice if they haven't improved the skill) whenever they do something important and there's a risk of failure." [emphasis mine]
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
FWIW, I've agreed with everything KageRyu has written, and I think the more you post, Mamatried, it becomes more evident that you just don't understand the basics of the system.

No numbers are "inflated" for PCs. I don't see anything in the rules that suggests that the Difficulty for an NPC should be different from the same task done by a PC.

Common folk of the galaxy don't have to make tough rolls as they live and work, because they are doing mundane things (driving their repulsorcraft to work, for example).

The RAW clearly says "Characters roll their skill dice (or their attribute dice if they haven't improved the skill) whenever they do something important and there's a risk of failure." [emphasis mine]




How difficult is the special trickshot the villain makes as a signature......it is heroic......so in order for this to make sense in a wrtie up we give hime 8D+2 in Blaster.

or another table deeming the exact same trickshot only a difficult move, and find that the write up of the villain only needs 6D in Blaster to regularly pull it off.

here we have two different decition on Hown difficult a thing is.

Now if we then do a scoursebook writeup and use the fist one we have a 8D+2 skill, and some will question this and maybe think this way too high.

Other than NPC players are not really designed to go up against, vader, paply etc, there are not many times we have anything more heavy in anything WEG published that is much more hard to take on than a royal guard, and I am then thinking to the skill ranks of 8-9 in the high ones, not counting pips.

so I would argue that while there is no limit on skills, I know very well a character can have 19D in a skill if needed.

but skills of 13D or 11D to in a Scoursebook write up villain that maybe is not at all that powerful could very well be argued being inflated.


it all boils down to how high skill Dice do the NPC need in order ro (possibly) routinely pull off this very hard maneuver? will 5D in Politing do or does it look so amazing on screen when we see it that it "must be" 9D and then we do a write up in a scoursebook, with stats that in many cases are possibly spot on, and in many cases quite infakated exactly for that reason.


so the question is really how high skill level is needed to swirl a lightsaber.....That is more or less what he did. it loos cool so the skill must be mace Windu high....or maybe not......

so this is why I say that some number are and will alway be inflated as to what is needed.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think you're misunderstanding things. We don't 'reverse engineer' anything to figure out how hard that trick shot is. If it's TN=20 for one person, it's the same TN for the next guy/gal.

If it's Heroic, and somebody can routinely pull it off, then they've got a really high Blaster Skill.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
I still think you're misunderstanding things. We don't 'reverse engineer' anything to figure out how hard that trick shot is. If it's TN=20 for one person, it's the same TN for the next guy/gal.

If it's Heroic, and somebody can routinely pull it off, then they've got a really high Blaster Skill.

Exactly.
I am a bit saddened, and I feel I failed (not high enough Die Code in teaching I guess). I really wanted to help get him to understand the system better not just to be a better GM and Player, but to be able to better participate in discussion regarding in the hopes he would get more enjoyment from the game and come to love it as I do. I just do not know where he is getting this idea of different difficulties for different characters or what such charts he is referring to, because they are not in any of my core books for D6 as I recall (not Star Wars, Metabarons, D6 Core Trilogy, Men In Black, Ghostbusters, Hercules/Xena, DC Heroes.... none of them).

Back to Grievous... as he was one of my favorite Characters from the PT, and I do not feel any of the existing write ups have done him justice, I have decided I will take a crack at not just stating him, but detailing and stating his cybernetics and reconstruction. Currently, aside from the movie, and the Clone Wars episodes he appears in, I have no access to other detailed material. I can do some research through Wookiepedia. Is there any particular sources or media I should also look to for information?

While I am with Whill regarding his Origin, and may not agree with all of the material that came after the movie, I would still like to consult it and be aware of it before making decisions on how to proceed. I will obviously be taking some artistic license.

When it comes to skills, I can base it, to some extent, on comparisons to other characters he has fought - but here is the rub - no official material from WEG exists for PT characters. I do have Obi-Wan's stats from A New Hope, which is well after the clone wars. Though, since Obi Wan was in hiding and likely did little adventuring or improvement, I feel I can reasonable say these would closely have reflected his stats at the close of the Clone Wars when he fought and defeated Grievous, within a few pips or D. Are there particular stats that this community has a consensus on as to accuracy for other PT characters that I can use for comparison?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I understand that fan written marerial is not RAW, but they can within the rules, a ship that can no go under water but is FAN statted with under water drive is NOT whitin raw, another ship could be but not That one.

But that is besides the point.

The main topic was basically WHY Grivous Lightsaber skill was so high.
and I refer to the difficulty and how the creator of the book deemed the taske Grivous does often enough without failing and he stats him acordingly.

So if it was blaster and his "panachè" involved quite complxe techniqes then lets say much what the shooter would o would difficult , maybe 18

So he needs to be statted out to be able to roll 18 more than 50% of the time, and becuse we are taling about a villain,\ that is a big challenge here, so with his 6D blaster he rolls 18 often enough but even the palyers tcan start with 6D so lets give this guy a little OMPF........and he had 9D in blaster.
he can still actually roll a failure, but rarely does so.

Now this is why Grivous has so high skills, the fight will invlove narratio of very difficult stuff, to be abe to do this often ebnough to not only rely on wild dice, he is statted high.





As to "boss" I used brackes, as I am sure everyone would consider Grivous more than a mere elite , after all he was in the movie designed to be a challenging opponent, we call this in BRACKETS ...These thigs " text " when we then use the BOSS label on him

As to Agriculture this is a skill in star wars under Knowledge, it does in fact have dice and pips and some thing to roll against....what I do not know I made it as an example.


And again I am not about how difficult going 200 mph in a 90 degree is, or how mny dice some should have.

I am saying that the person that wrote the stats felt that they should be that high. and it would be reasobale to use the difficulty scale as a way to show this.


blaster 2D+1 can never roll 15 ( unless wild dice) so if the villain is very often doing a blaster trick that is 18 difficult then reasonably he is skilled enough to roll this often enough...

and that is why the skill Dice are so high, it is becuse it decided by the person making the scoursebook that those stats was needed/fitted best.

I am not saying he used the difficulty scale I am not debating it, I am not argung g\how many dic a mokk should or should not have.
I am saying that by uding the difficulty scale and dice average you can easily see how the person making the stats could have been thinking.

and I have no issues with any of the stats...they are what they are
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q: The main topic was basically WHY Grievous Lightsaber skill was so high.
A: Because sometimes fan made stats are just silly, and should be ignored.


I think that answers it, really I do.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I wish this forum had a 'Like' button, pakman. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Sometimes I wish this forum had a 'Like' button, pakman. Smile

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