The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Corrected Executor
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech -> Corrected Executor Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5308
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems I didn't make it clear enough that I have already acknowledged many posts ago the vailidity of changing the Executor's size. WEG was wrong, I can accept that. I'm just trying to figure out the best way of fixing this with the least amount of stress on the continuity.
_________________
"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pel
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 984
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know that there is a way to do that, Gry. It seems there are two schools of thought, each believing in the merits of their own position. Evidence or no, like much of what is discussed here it comes down to personal opinions and what works best for a given campaign.

In the grand scheme of roleplaying, does it truly matter if the Executor is 8 km or 18? Not a bit. Even at it's smallest, the ship is exponentially larger than anything the players or their NPC pals can reasonably get their hands on, and will most likely obliterate them if they stick around.

Grandiose vessels like Executor, Eclipse, and Sovereign are not only flagships, they are symbols of Imperial might intended to inspire terror and obedience through sheer size and firepower.

I'm reminded of a quote, but am unsure from whom it originates:

"If you're in hell, does it matter whether the fires that burn you are a million degrees or a billion?"

Food for thought.
_________________
Aha!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5308
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you are very correct. With things like this, so utterly huge that they dwarf whatever you can throw at them, the stats don't really matter. Whether the Super has 10D hull or 20D hull, you're still not going to be able to punch through....

It's really just a matter of setting the record straight. Which is exactly why I talked about "fixing it with the least amount of stress". If the stats themselves won't affect the game that much, then why not leave them as they are and just correct the size?
_________________
"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jedi Skyler
Moff
Moff


Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pel, just remember that Gry here is one of our expert statslingers. He's been invaluable in supplying us with fan-based works of art in the form of several superb sourcebooks. If he's pursuing the final, be-all, end-all stats or descriptions or [insert data bit here], it's because it's simply in his nature to pursue these things as relentlessly as he can. He is a very conscientious worker, and is simply looking to make sure things are right so everyone can benefit. He's not trying to tick anyone off, or beat a dead horse. He's just being the Gry we all know and love. Wink

And I like that quote! A very good point there! Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pel
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 984
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks. I'm still not sure where I read that....

Anyway, no worries. I've been absolutely impressed by the quality of discussion here by everyone, with special emphasis to those of extraordinary superior rank (yourself and Gry Sarth among those). From what I've read your contributions are outstanding.

I'm here to share my opinions and have fun, and I certainly appreciate the laudable goal of the One True Answer if for no other reason that it will better the game for everyone.

Excellent debate. Tea and cookies all around. Very Happy
_________________
Aha!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gry Sarth wrote:
Yes, you are very correct. With things like this, so utterly huge that they dwarf whatever you can throw at them, the stats don't really matter. Whether the Super has 10D hull or 20D hull, you're still not going to be able to punch through....

It's really just a matter of setting the record straight. Which is exactly why I talked about "fixing it with the least amount of stress". If the stats themselves won't affect the game that much, then why not leave them as they are and just correct the size?


I agree with that. It would of course be unfair to correct the stats, other than just the size in the middle of a game where the Executor class ships are engaged in battle or have been engaged so far. One only needs correct the size of the ship in a statement. Nothing more. I make these suggestions to set the record straight, and so that people have the option to use the corrected ship stats in upcomming games should they choose to do so.

I think that many more ships in the game need correcting. Not so much for balance, but rather for accuracy.

I made these changes in my own game prior to the Executor Class ship being seen.

I haven't finished correcting the Eclipse as of yet, but it has been seen in my current campaign. Though the size has been reported as being nearly 40km in length. The players haven't yet seen the ship. They are however trying to formulate a plan to deal with the situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
masque
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 626
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reason I wouldn't increase the length of the Eclipse is because it is specifically stated in Dark Empire (comic, not WEG sourcebook) to be 10 miles long. That translates to 16.09 km. I think the superlaser issue can be explained by miniaturization and the increased width and height of the Eclipse class. I don't think the laser has to be a linear shaft, in other words. The Sovereign class doesn't worry me at all, as that was something invented by WEG which doesn't even appear in the comic.
_________________
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

masque wrote:
The only reason I wouldn't increase the length of the Eclipse is because it is specifically stated in Dark Empire (comic, not WEG sourcebook) to be 10 miles long. That translates to 16.09 km. I think the superlaser issue can be explained by miniaturization and the increased width and height of the Eclipse class. I don't think the laser has to be a linear shaft, in other words. The Sovereign class doesn't worry me at all, as that was something invented by WEG which doesn't even appear in the comic.


And to an extent I agree with the above statement. Though the Ecplise is supposed to be longer, and the Executor has been under estimated at five miles long instead of 11. Therefore the Eclipse and Sovereign would need adjustment too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5308
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But don't you think the writer of Dark Empire created his Eclipse vessel based off the Executor. I would imagine he thought something like: "Ok, now I need a flagship for the reborn Emperor. A Star Destroyer, but one as big and massive as the fans have never seen. How long was Vader's Star Destrooyer, this one has to blow that one completely out of the water (checks Lucasfilms archives, or failing that, the next official source, WEG) Ah, 8 Km long... alright that's pretty huge, but mine's gonna dwarf it. I think I'll make it, uh... 10 miles long! And massive at that! Yeah, that'll put the fear of God into those Rebels."

My point is, if he knew the Executor to measure 19 Km, he would have said the Eclipse was larger.....
_________________
"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gry Sarth wrote:
But don't you think the writer of Dark Empire created his Eclipse vessel based off the Executor. I would imagine he thought something like: "Ok, now I need a flagship for the reborn Emperor. A Star Destroyer, but one as big and massive as the fans have never seen. How long was Vader's Star Destrooyer, this one has to blow that one completely out of the water (checks Lucasfilms archives, or failing that, the next official source, WEG) Ah, 8 Km long... alright that's pretty huge, but mine's gonna dwarf it. I think I'll make it, uh... 10 miles long! And massive at that! Yeah, that'll put the fear of God into those Rebels."

My point is, if he knew the Executor to measure 19 Km, he would have said the Eclipse was larger.....


I agree 100% and I couldn't have said it better myself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
masque
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 626
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on who he asked for the info. The model makers and Lucasfilm knew the Executor was supposed to be about 11 miles long, and the proportions in the films show this. I don't know what he used as his source material, or if stats for the Executor-class even mattered to the writer. He may have just thought "10 miles is HUGE!" and left it at that. The way to settle it would be if there is a picture of an Eclipse and Executor class in Dark Empire, but I don't think there is.

I know it's a screw up. But it's a matter of sources. The comic is the primary source for the size of the Eclipse, not the WEG book. That establishes the canonical length. The stats for the Executor-class do seem to need adjusting if one wants it to be canonical. We now have a corrected canonical length for the Executor class. The comments I've made previously about the superlaser and a possible length limit on these types of starship are simply an attempt to reconcile the canonical sources while eliminating the need for the unnecessary work of stat conversion. I'm certainly not going to prevent anyone from using any stats they want in their game. There are certain things that are canonical that I don't use or that I flat out contradict. I just don't view my interpretations as canon.
_________________
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12273
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't mind seeing the soverign staying at it's current size, but i don't feel the eclipse needs doubling in size, just adding a few miles to the 11 of the executor would be good..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing the soverign staying at it's current size, but i don't feel the eclipse needs doubling in size, just adding a few miles to the 11 of the executor would be good..


It is not a question of the Eclipse needing to be bigger at all. Hell the Executor isn't really needed. The Empire could have built a ton of standard ISD's instead. That would have been more cost effective, and been a more flexible solution.

The fact is the Emperor did these types of things to scare the crap out of the popluation of the galaxy. He does these things because he can. Not because they are needed.

The Eclipse only needs adjustment in order to maintain scale with the Executor and for no other reason.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Scrawprin
Jedi


Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 150
Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For reference (or perhaps I overlooked it), here is the STAR WARS Databank entry for the Executor.


And the Technical Commentaries, I love that site because it helped me prove both to myself and others that I'm not losing my mind that WEG didn't have their facts together completely... A 15 meter AT-AT? Hmmpf. Almost worse than the Executor discrepency.
_________________
Team ORJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scrawprin wrote:
For reference (or perhaps I overlooked it), here is the STAR WARS Databank entry for the Executor.


And the Technical Commentaries, I love that site because it helped me prove both to myself and others that I'm not losing my mind that WEG didn't have their facts together completely... A 15 meter AT-AT? Hmmpf. Almost worse than the Executor discrepency.


Precisely my point. http://www.starwars.com has even acknowledged that the Executor should be 19,000 Meters in length. What does that tell you? You can even see a relative size difference of the ISD's vs. the Executor in both Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

As to the size of Eclipse and Sovereign compared to the Executor, I can only guess that they wanted to double the size of the Executor when they quoted their 17Km plus figure for the length. If the writers of the comics understood that there was a mistake in the sizing of the Executor in all the published material of the time, then they would have made it around 35,000 meters which has become the most accepted corrected length.

WEG definitley doesn't have their crap together either. If you believe that I am sorry. I'll take the films and what I see with my eyes over anything WEG has printed. I find several balance issues with stats of ships in the game. Others do to otherwise there wouldn't be fan made PDF files out there that correct for these clear errors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0