Two Lightsabers

[Son of Fire]

Well Volar, I have to disagree with you on this one.
Sure, anyone can pick up a sabre and wave it around…but to wield it effectively…that’s a whole different ball of wax. The sabre itself is a very unique, powerful, and dangerous weapon, not only for the opponent, but also for the wielders themselves (I know I don’t have to tell you that and that you are already aware of the fact, but bear with me here). It has no mass to the blade, and has an “omni-directional” cutting edge, both of which tend to make the slightest mishaps of a potentially lethal nature. Also these unique properties tend to make it very different from the more common melee weapons out there. So I would not really be willing to allow just anyone to pick it up and utilize one in combat, let alone two.
Also, I would not want to make it so cheap for a PC to brandish twin sabres, if it was so easy, all Jedi would be doing it all the time, hence the Force power…I have to give them something to dissuade them from wanting every character to go “John Woo” with sabres. To me, making it a Force power is kind of like a natural extension of the Ligthsabre Combat power, and it lessens the potential for abuse.

As for the Anakin versus Dooku thing…well I tend to look at it as either a) Anakin did not have the power, so he could not have used them to there fullest effect, or b) Dooku was just too good with his sabre, after all he did fight Yoda to a standstill.

On another note, I was pretty neat to see that you liked my idea of the dice cap from previous thread for two-weapon combat. It was kind of neat to see that people out there latched on to the idea and liked it.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Volar the Healer]

Disagree away. One of the purposes of this forum is to discuss ideas. So, just to challenge your last post; Who cannot wield a lightsaber? A being without hands, I suppose. But that's about it. Remember, Han Solo used Luke's lightsaber in the movie without any training - though not in combat.

As to the game mechanics, I think your description of the problems of wielding a lightsaber is right on. Anybody wielding a lightsaber, especially without the 'lightsaber combat' force power, runs the risk of injuring themselves by missing the roll by 10 since it requires a 20 to hit with it in the first place. So the difficulties of using a lightsaber, which we agree on, has already been addressed in the basic rule.

Your comment about a character aquiring a duel lightsaber style cheaply under my rule is completly wrong. Assuming two characters wish to develop a duel lightsaber skill to an effective level (I'll assume 5D just for the sake of discussion), a Jedi using your rule would spend 5 character points to learn the lightsaber combat power, and another 5 CPs learning the 'duel lightsaber combat' power for a total of 10 CPs plus the CPs needed to raise the lightsaber skill. Any character using my rule would spend CPs to raise lightsaber skill (same as yours) plus CPs to raise 'duel lightsaber' skill. An average player character going from 3D DEX to 5D 'duel lightsaber' skill would spend 21 character points. So your rule is cheaper in CPs than mine! The higher the skill is raised (I consider 6D+2 to be qualified with a lightsaber) the cheaper your rule becomes.

Using only the standard game mechanics for a skill, I've made it difficult, but possible to wield two lightsabers at the same time. Your rule creates a "special rule" that applies to 'duel lightsaber' skill and nowhere else. (When a Jedi learns 'duel blasters' as a force power under your rule, does he gain the same benefits with his pistols?)

The eloquent simplicity of the D6 system is part of why it's a superior RPG system. When creating a game mechanic to allow something in the new movies, I'm not willing to give that simplicity up unless there is no other way.
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No Jesus, No Peace

[Maximilian Bernas]

My use of the dual lightsabers (seen to decent effect in my "How my Jedi lost his connection... etc., etc.) was usually against an opponent likewise armed or against large groups alone (which happened more often than not).

The character Bernas enjoys lightsaber engineering (A) as a skill, and has created almost a dozen blades over his 15 year or so career as a Force user. In addition, he has acquired about the same number from fallen comrades, more fallen foes, and chance discoveries.

My mechanics are relatively simple... Activate lightsaber combat (control diff moderate and sense diff easy) and the die penalties just keep on coming... For an example of Bernas with Force skills:

Bernas: Lightsaber 9D+2, Control 9D, Sense 8D+1 (Crimson sabers 7D+2 base damage)
Does both rolls same round (-1D penalty), succeeds and decides to keep the power "up." Now Each lightsaber begins with 16D+1 damage and Bernas' Lightsaber begins at 17D. If Bernas attacks OR defends with both sabers in the same round, the die penalties are doubled.

Bernas keeps Lightsaber Combat "up," Danger Sense "up," and will attack with one blade and defend with another. That's -1D for each Force power, plus -1D for the additional saber, plus -2D for the attack and defense for a total of -5D to each action and damage. Lightsaber is now 12D and each blade's damage is now 11D+1.

Is he still a bad @$$? Well, yeah. But is he invincible? Obviously not. And that is only for 1 attack and 1 defense. And of course you cannot full parry with both sabers (unless you are using them against the same attack [like a cross block or something]), but even if you only use one of the blades, the die penalty is there because you're still attuned to both weapons.

The mechanics for a Darth Maul or Exar Kun double saber are a more interesting scenario. How are those mechanics in your games?

I await the awesome answers!
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"Let your anger be like a monkey in a pinata"
- Master Tang

[Son of Fire]

Heh, I was wondering if you where going to bring up the Han on Hoth thing, but your right that he was not really using it in combat, so it kind of makes his use of the sabre a moot point.

As for the math about it…I understand that and advocate that a ability such as dual sabres should have some serious cost. After all it would be give a PC the ability to have two actions without a dice penalty should have some form of drawback. So my rational would be that the PC should pay “out-the-nose” and have difficulty learning to wield two-blasters/sabres/etc. That’s why I advocate the Force power in addition to a skill (be it a specialization, advanced skill or whatever). Even if they manage to scrap up the pips, they would still need a teacher of some kind. Also like I stated earlier, I think it would just be a natural progression of the Lightsabre Combat power.

Though I think that my earlier post where not really all that clear, I was just stating how the power I found on the net works…not how my group uses it. So I think some confusion arose due to my part for not making that clear.

Oh and Max…I think I have seen how some folk use a double-bladed Lightsabre on the net; I’ll try to find that for ya.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Vartax]

I like the idea of having it be a force skill, but also keeping up the negatives to the dice pool. Something else that could be cool is if a jedi misses for some reason to block a shot, he should be able to use the second saber to block it.

[Son of Fire]

That would make sense.
If we did away with the one attack and one parry, and just gave the Jedi two actions of thier choice.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Maximilian Bernas]

Well, to be fair, Dooku was a saber versus saber Master and Anakin wasn't even a fully trained knight yet, chosen one or not!

Besides, I hear through the grapevine Anakin is going to use 3 lightsabers in his duel with ObiWan in Episode III! (one via Telekinesis of course...)

Should be a neat fight. I also hear it will be the longest fight scene in cinematic history (12 uninterupted minutes!)...
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"Let your anger be like a monkey in a pinata"
- Master Tang

[Son of Fire]

Yup, that he was, and Anakin was still not at his peak potential.
3 sabres though eh? Now I can see how he purged the galaxy of Jedi.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Scrawprin]

*OFF TOPIC*

If Anakin is able to use X number of lightsabers because of how good he is (which is hinted at in Ep. 2 by Obi-wan), how is Obi-wan going to "leave him for dead" in Ep. 3 (assuming we see this in the movie)? Just wondering... I still think Obi-wan doesn't get enough credit when it comes to lightsaber combat. He (Obi) does fairly well against Maul, too.

= Obi-wan Kenobi - Master saberist =

[Son of Fire]

No worries mang, a little topic deviation is not going to kill anyone.

The only thing I can figure is that Obi has the Force on his side (see luck). After all, we know that Anakin is going to be the most powerful Jedi ever (until his son comes along). Honestly I think that if Obi is going to “beat” him, it will be the same way he “beat” Maul…luck.
More like... Obi = good guy = the winner.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Maximilian Bernas]

Obi-wan doesn't lose his head, ever.

He wins in the face of superior foes not because he good, but because he is a perfect vessel for The Force.

Now, has anyone found some good game mechanics for 2 light sabers and the light double-bladed saber? I want to compare...
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"Let your anger be like a monkey in a pinata"
- Master Tang

[cheshire]

Alright, let's try this one on and see how we like it. Why not make dual wield an advanced skill? Once you attain 6D (or whatever) on your lightsaber, you can start (A) Dual Blades at 1D. Same rules apply for advancement, twice the CP cost and twice the time to learn. The skill allows you to have two lightsaber actions with no penalty, two actions with a 1D penalty to both, 2D penalty for three actions, and so on.

[Son of Fire]

Well I can’t say I agree with Obi-Wan being the perfect vessel for the force, but he sure is better than your average vessel, that’s for sure.

Cheshire, I think that seems reasonable so I say test it out and see how she flies. Play testing is pretty much the best way of sorting out rules issues after all, just let us know how it went after a while. Or better yet, try a few different methods and let us know.
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"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[cheshire]

I've got a good opportunity. I've got a new campaign that has just begun and a upstart Jedi is interested in wielding two lightsabers. It will be a while before they reach the level where they can use them, but I'll keep you posted.

[Rathe Ehtar]

I ask you, what ever happened to good ol' multiple action penalties, huh?
Really, an advanced skill?

"you must do what you feel is right, of course."
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"I don't know about angels, but it's fear that gives men wings." -Max Payne

"I don't buy that cluck like a dog, bark like a chicken stuff." -Col. Jack O'Neill