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ZzaphodD
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 Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | The above system is a way of both allowing for a more realistic system without increasing complexity very much, and also bring Fire Rate into the game in a way that actually means something. |
Let me try a couple of examples (remember these are just examples, I don't have the actual character's stats handy so if I got them wrong don't tell me, just change the example in your head  ).
(1) Han Solo (DL-44 ROF=1) blaster skill (say 9D) takes 4 firing action and dodges in a round. Each firing action is 1 shot and all actions are at -4D (for the 5 actions) so total of 4 shots at 5D skill each.
(2) Jango Fett (twin blasters ROF=3) blaster skill (say 10D) takes 4 firing actions and flies with his rocket pack in a round. Each firing action is at -4D for MAPs (firing and flying), in addition each firing action is 3 shots (for a further -2D penalty). So each of the 4x3=12 shots is at 10D-6D = 4D to hit. He can mow down an entire squad of simple battle droids.
Are these examples correct ZzaphodD?
I like the fact that there is another trade off between high damage and lower damage rapid fire weapons. I think this idea is interesting and may have promise. I would also be tempted to make many holdout blasters ROF=1 as well. |
Again, most characters dont have 9 or 10D in blaster. But your example also highlights another strange thing with Fire Rate. If the current system is good and firing many times is common, why is there only Fire Rate 1 weapons. A good Blaster Pistol might differ from a cheap one by having Fire Rate 4 instead of 2. Now its more or less unlimited shots vs 1 shot each round.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Again, most characters dont have 9 or 10D in blaster. But your example also highlights another strange thing with Fire Rate. If the current system is good and firing many times is common, why is there only Fire Rate 1 weapons. A good Blaster Pistol might differ from a cheap one by having Fire Rate 4 instead of 2. Now its more or less unlimited shots vs 1 shot each round. |
Just checking to see how it works for characters above base.
I agree that having nearly all weapons as either ROF=∞ or ROF=1 is odd. I just want to make sure your modification works acceptably for various skill levels, which it seems to do. The only other concerns are that it increases the effect of blasters and other ROF > 1 weapons vs. melee weapons and that it may make combat even deadlier than before. It might work best if combined with maintaining existing RAW single dodge vs. multiple attacks (so that multiple shots don't overpower dodge) and if melee attack/parry and brawling attack/parry are combined into single skills e.g. melee and brawling (to counter the effect of multiple shots per attack). |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Again, most characters dont have 9 or 10D in blaster. But your example also highlights another strange thing with Fire Rate. If the current system is good and firing many times is common, why is there only Fire Rate 1 weapons. A good Blaster Pistol might differ from a cheap one by having Fire Rate 4 instead of 2. Now its more or less unlimited shots vs 1 shot each round. |
Just checking to see how it works for characters above base.
I agree that having nearly all weapons as either ROF=∞ or ROF=1 is odd. I just want to make sure your modification works acceptably for various skill levels, which it seems to do. The only other concerns are that it increases the effect of blasters and other ROF > 1 weapons vs. melee weapons and that it may make combat even deadlier than before. It might work best if combined with maintaining existing RAW single dodge vs. multiple attacks (so that multiple shots don't overpower dodge) and if melee attack/parry and brawling attack/parry are combined into single skills e.g. melee and brawling (to counter the effect of multiple shots per attack). |
The system requires an overhaul of the Fire Rates. There should be no weapons with unlimited Fire Rate. Havent any hard rules here yet, but I guess between 1 and 3 would be what Im aiming for. This means that a gunner shooting his FR:3 blaster with five actions actually can shoot 15 shots. They will be at -6D and shot in groups of three at a maximum of 5 targets. However, a Fire Rate 3 weapon would be the extreme, 2 being the average and 'heavier' blasters having 1. Gotta think about that one, if it ever crops up that is. Would you be ok with Jango Squezing off 15 shots at 4D to hit?
Some weapons in the rules actually have a realistic low fire rate, such as grenade launchers and such. Those would be noted as Fire Rate: 1/R, which means 1 per Round (ie RAW).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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One of the suggestions i had from a player, was base it of 7d max for reg hand carry weapons. Your Fire rate and damage had to come out of that 7 score.. So pistols (4d) would have a 3 rof. Reg heavy pistols and rifles (5d) wuld have a 2 ROF.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | One of the suggestions i had from a player, was base it of 7d max for reg hand carry weapons. Your Fire rate and damage had to come out of that 7 score.. So pistols (4d) would have a 3 rof. Reg heavy pistols and rifles (5d) wuld have a 2 ROF. |
Huh, what?
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | The system requires an overhaul of the Fire Rates. There should be no weapons with unlimited Fire Rate. Havent any hard rules here yet, but I guess between 1 and 3 would be what Im aiming for. This means that a gunner shooting his FR:3 blaster with five actions actually can shoot 15 shots. They will be at -6D and shot in groups of three at a maximum of 5 targets. However, a Fire Rate 3 weapon would be the extreme, 2 being the average and 'heavier' blasters having 1. Gotta think about that one, if it ever crops up that is. Would you be ok with Jango Squezing off 15 shots at 4D to hit?
Some weapons in the rules actually have a realistic low fire rate, such as grenade launchers and such. Those would be noted as Fire Rate: 1/R, which means 1 per Round (ie RAW). |
Well as you pointed out, unlimited ROF isn't actually unlimited (due to MAPs) and in fact your rules mod doesn't put any limit on the effective rate of fire. The practical effect will actually be an increased rate of fire for some weapons and no effect for others.
But to answer your question - yes I can probably live with Jango sqeezing off 15 shots at 4D each to hit. I've mentioned the caveats (dodge, melee, brawl) and Random is right that it will involve more die rolling per round (for weapons with ROF > 1).
A related matter, with your suggested variant LS combat blaster parry. Jango with 15 shots (assume range is short and all shots hit). Would have a -14x3=52 to a Jedi's parry. So a Jedi would need to roll 58-62 to be able to parry all of Jango's shots. Which means effectively the Jedi needs about 17D-18D to parry. Now it is very hard for the Jedi to parry all of Jango's shots (and a dodge may be a good choice). I think I like that. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | [
The system requires an overhaul of the Fire Rates. There should be no weapons with unlimited Fire Rate. Havent any hard rules here yet, but I guess between 1 and 3 would be what Im aiming for. This means that a gunner shooting his FR:3 blaster with five actions actually can shoot 15 shots. They will be at -6D and shot in groups of three at a maximum of 5 targets. However, a Fire Rate 3 weapon would be the extreme, 2 being the average and 'heavier' blasters having 1. Gotta think about that one, if it ever crops up that is. Would you be ok with Jango Squezing off 15 shots at 4D to hit? |
I don7t think Jango squeezing off 15 shots would be a good idea. Realsitically, weapon ROF is limited by more that just how fast someone can pull the trigger.
Plus, with really high ROFs very few of the shots tend to land anywhere near the target. You can empty the clip of an M-16 but only the first half dozen shots are going to have any chance of hitting what you were aiming at.
I could see someone who had\s dice to burn doing some insame number of attacks, and relying on statstical problabilty to ensure a hit. And it would really bog down the game. Even a ROF of 2 would double the number of attack rolls.
What if the ROF was the number of targets you could shoot with one attack roll? (excess ROF could be traded for Atk/DMG dice). So an ROF 3 weapob could threaten three targets with the same attack roll. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | A related matter, with your suggested variant LS combat blaster parry. Jango with 15 shots (assume range is short and all shots hit). Would have a -14x3=52 to a Jedi's parry. So a Jedi would need to roll 58-62 to be able to parry all of Jango's shots. Which means effectively the Jedi needs about 17D-18D to parry. Now it is very hard for the Jedi to parry all of Jango's shots (and a dodge may be a good choice). I think I like that. |
Even though he doesnt get that man shot off, but isnt firing many times what happens when Jango shoots that Jedi at the arena fight?
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Even though he doesnt get that man shot off, but isnt firing many times what happens when Jango shoots that Jedi at the arena fight? |
Yes, I believe Jango does rapidly shoot the Jedi in the arena. That is exactly what I was thinking of. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ...And it would really bog down the game. Even a ROF of 2 would double the number of attack rolls... |
It would make the round longer, but it would require fewer rounds to resolve a light fight combat. So net-net no real change there.
Where I think it may bog down, is when the shooter is firing 2x as many shots for each melee swing that the sword wielder has. Due to the bonus' of lightsaber combat I don't think this is much of a problem for Jedi, but for Wookiees or melee characters they may be a bit handicapped and players may feel annoyed that the shooter gets 2x as many shots (assuming a blaster pistol with ROF=2) as the melee/brawler gets swings. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Actually I miscalculated. The penalty for multiple shots in a single round in cumulative even if they are not true MAPs. This means that Jango (Blaster 10D) could 'only' attack 5 times with a total of 6 shots at 4D, even though his other action (say Dodge) would only be at -5D (from 6 actions).
On the other hand he could just do two attacks with a total of 6 shots and a Dodge at 4D (-6D to Blaster) while only suffering a -2D MAP penalty to the dodge. Thats blasting away wildly for ya!
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Actually I miscalculated. The penalty for multiple shots in a single round in cumulative even if they are not true MAPs. This means that Jango (Blaster 10D) could 'only' attack 5 times with a total of 6 shots at 4D, even though his other action (say Dodge) would only be at -5D (from 6 actions).
On the other hand he could just do two attacks with a total of 6 shots and a Dodge at 4D (-6D to Blaster) while only suffering a -2D MAP penalty to the dodge. Thats blasting away wildly for ya! |
OK, now I am confused. 
I thought Jango (blaster 10D) with ROF=3 special blaster pistols could take five fire actions (3 shots per action) and dodge. That is six actions so -5D to all actions. In addition for each of the fire actions he could take 3 shots. That would be two more actions (for the 2nd and 3rd shots). So he now has -7D to his shots and -5D to his dodge for a total of 5x3 shots. What did I not understand? |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, lets first do away with the Dodge.
5 attacks are at a -4D map. For one of those attacks he squeezes off one extra shot at a -1D extra penalty to his Blaster shooting this round = -5D = 5D.
Now he takes a Dodge as well, ending up with a -6D to Blaster (-5D Map plus an additional -1D for shooting one extra shot). However his Dodge is only affected by the -5D MAPs.
The rule is not optimal (and you gain little in the game) for such shooting.
Compare to the example with 2 attacks with a total of 6 shots.
2 Attacks & 1 Dodge -2D Maps, 4 additional shots -4D = -6D to Blaster, -2D to Dodge.
The general idea is that quickly squeezing off shots should affect your aim, but take little additional time so it shouldnt affect other actions to the same degree.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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So the ROF allows more shots per attack. But the MAPs are per shot vs. blaster skill, but per attack for other skills, e.g. dodge. So Jango Fett can shoot a total of maybe 6-9 times, which (without any other skills) would give him an attack of between 10D-5D=5D and 10D-8D=2D for each shot. With a ROF=3 six shots could be 2 attacks of 3 shots each and nine shots could be 3 attacks of 3 shots each. Which would still allow a dodge at -2D for six shots or -3D for 3 shots (though a dodge would lower any following attacks by another -1D).
Other than my previous caveats, I don't see a problem with this rule.
I think I may like the technique for handling multiple force skill powers. Where each skill used counts against force skills, but each power counts against non-force skills. So a Jedi with Lightsaber combat up who wants to also dodge and use telekinesis is using three force skills (control and sense for LS combat and alter for TK) and one normal skill. That counts as -3 MAPs for force powers (lowering her alter by -3D) but only counts as -2 MAPs vs dodge. This would make it easier for a Jedi to use the force and chew gum at the same time. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | One of the suggestions i had from a player, was base it of 7d max for reg hand carry weapons. Your Fire rate and damage had to come out of that 7 score.. So pistols (4d) would have a 3 rof. Reg heavy pistols and rifles (5d) wuld have a 2 ROF. |
Huh, what? |
The less damaging the weapon the more ROF.. So those 6d heavy blaster pistols would have only 1 ROF (6+1=7), regular heavies ROF 2 (5+2=7)
and so on.
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