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KageRyu
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 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: | | Example: So, a character with Control 4D+2 and Sense 3D wishes to Raise Lightsaber Combat which normall has a moderate control difficulty and an easy sense difficulty has a new baseline Moderate +1D difficulty and rolls 5D+2 (4D+2 with +1 for Each D in sense). |
Primary skill Control 4D+2
Secondary skill Sense 3D (+3 to the roll).
Control difficulty: RAW: Moderate. My rules: Same.
Sense: RAW: Easy. My rules +2.
This would mean a Moderate +2 difficulty (say 15) and the character would roll 4D+5. |
Except that each +3 converts to a D, so it would be 5D+2, Yeah, I think we are on about the same page.
For multi-difficuties with modifiers, I'd say take the highest after modifiers are applied, and then figure the "bump" for the second difficulty after it's modifiers are aplied.
So, with Projective Telepathy, Let's say with modifiers or +10 for control, Control becomes around a Moderate (Very Easy +10=15=Moderate). Let's say with Sense, the target resist with a 2D+1 perception and has 7, so it's in the Easy to Moderate Range if using ranges, but still lower than than Control. So Control should be the primary. That's my thoughts anyway.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | gotta keep playing counterpoint argument 
In at least one RAW source (dark side sourcebook), it says specifically for lightsabre combat you roll the sense roll to add sense to lightsabre skill, and control to add control to damage, being very literal in our house rules because we have low skilled jedi that find it hard making a moderate control during MAP, our house rule is you can fail one and still get the other. It roleplays out nicely and believably, it's easier for a Jedi to learn to start reacting with the Force like Luke and the training remote, than it is to later start using the Force to increase lightsabre damage, and a low skilled Jedi maybe able to do one but not the other.
Don't forget some Jedi start as quixotic or some other manner where Sense maybe a starting skill and Control learned later so lags behind, eg. a low level Jedi maybe Control 2D+2, Sense 4D and being a low level padawan has lightsabre combat. He'd fail pretty consistently with a single roll system, or hard arse RAW enforcing failing one roll excludes all the power's effects, under a roleplay-justified house rule he still gets lightsabre combat to deflect blasters and increase skill, but just not to increase damage without spending CP on the Control roll. |
Well, the Jedi will fail under RAW and will fail under this house-rule so I dont really see an arguement here. To manage your house rule, where you can activate specific parts of powers even if you dont manage all the tests, my system would obviously have to be modified.
But lets make this a working system somewhat connected to the RAW before we try to adjust my houserule to others. 
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: | | Example: So, a character with Control 4D+2 and Sense 3D wishes to Raise Lightsaber Combat which normall has a moderate control difficulty and an easy sense difficulty has a new baseline Moderate +1D difficulty and rolls 5D+2 (4D+2 with +1 for Each D in sense). |
Primary skill Control 4D+2
Secondary skill Sense 3D (+3 to the roll).
Control difficulty: RAW: Moderate. My rules: Same.
Sense: RAW: Easy. My rules +2.
This would mean a Moderate +2 difficulty (say 15) and the character would roll 4D+5. |
Except that each +3 converts to a D, so it would be 5D+2, Yeah, I think we are on about the same page.
For multi-difficuties with modifiers, I'd say take the highest after modifiers are applied, and then figure the "bump" for the second difficulty after it's modifiers are aplied.
So, with Projective Telepathy, Let's say with modifiers or +10 for control, Control becomes around a Moderate (Very Easy +10=15=Moderate). Let's say with Sense, the target resist with a 2D+1 perception and has 7, so it's in the Easy to Moderate Range if using ranges, but still lower than than Control. So Control should be the primary. That's my thoughts anyway. |
I havent actually thought about converting 'pips' do dice yet. When you do you 'win' 0,5 for each 3 pips. This could mean that if you have 6D in a secondary power you end up with on average +7 instead of +6, ie easier to activate the power.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | To the OP:
I have been working on this myself. So far what I have come up with is to use cross -skill powers as prerequisites but only roll the primary skill. For example, needing to know projective telepathy to use affect mind but rolling only alter to actually generate an effect. |
Ive been down that road too. However I really do like the idea of the different aspects of the force divided up in skills. And wanted a system where the different skills affect you ability to use powers. The RAW as is, is actually quite good if not for the excessive dice rolling.
I have also tried to implement a Force System much like how normal abilities and skills work. The RAW force skills would then become Force Abilities, and each RAW Force Power would work somehow like skills added on top of the abilities. Not exactly like RAW Abilities and skills though. The Force Abilities would be a standard dice code. The Powers would then be a 'bonus' added on top of that. Alter 5D and Telekinesis 2D would mean 7D total. However you keep track of the Force Ability and the Force Power dice separately as they could both be raised (Force Abilities would be raised much like the RAW today, ie easier than raising mundane abilities). However, I couldnt really get the character point right to keep it more or less in the same ballpark as the raw.
However, back to the system at hand. This system is just a step towards streamlining force use. I want to cut down on the dice rolling, reduce maps for activating multiple skill powers and keeping powers up, balance this (map reduction) with some other factors (probably rein in the jedis combat boosts (which will get more powerful if maps are reduced)).
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I havent actually thought about converting 'pips' do dice yet. When you do you 'win' 0,5 for each 3 pips. This could mean that if you have 6D in a secondary power you end up with on average +7 instead of +6, ie easier to activate the power. |
Yes, but it also introduces the possibility of lower rolls, and is part of the D6 conventions (3 pips translates up to 1 die). As I said it's not perfect, but no method of combining multi-skill force power use into a single roll is going to be - either it's going to make it harder or easier in the end, as it is changing a core mechanic (just as the Die simplification chart that yields that average of 7 on 2D is flawed, and if you have played long enough, you know there are good days and bad...some days 2D can't average above a 3 to save a characters life - literally). Bell curves and averages only look good on paper for dice probabilities, and are based on sheer volume of rolls - they just don't work out that way in real life most of the time.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I have also tried to implement a Force System much like how normal abilities and skills work. The RAW force skills would then become Force Abilities, and each RAW Force Power would work somehow like skills added on top of the abilities.[/i] |
Ok, this inspired an interesting thought...
Handle the three force powers as they are. Cost double to raise without a master, costs Attribute dice for first 1D on a template of each, etc...
Handle the Powers as "specializations" under the main force skill. With the cost being halved, that would mean the powers now cost the same to raise as a normal skill, but the force skills cost double (almost like advanced skills). Individual powers under 1 Force Skill go up whenever the Force Skill is raised. New powers cost a number of CP to acquire equal to the D in the related Force Skill. However... with Multi-Skill powers, make them a variation on Advanced skills - where as they cost 1CP per D per Force Skill involved, and the Character MUST have all the required Force Skills and Powers for it first, and it must start at 1D, not the D of the Force skill since it falls under Multiples.
Advantages to this method
• Each force power has it's own, unique Die Code.
• Powers can be raised and learned individually.
• Allows more variety in strength and efinition of Jedi and Force wielding Characters.
• Force power uses are now all single roll.
•Relatively simple and streamlined, and keeps with many existing D6 rules conventions without needing extensive rewrites or seriously unbalancing the system.
Disadvantages to this method
• Greater CP investment to learn and increase force related powers (especially multi powers that must be raised seperate of Force Skills).
• Need to reconfigure difficulties for new power structure.
• More paperwork needed on the part of Force users.
• Probably one or two more I can not think of yet...
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | I have also tried to implement a Force System much like how normal abilities and skills work. The RAW force skills would then become Force Abilities, and each RAW Force Power would work somehow like skills added on top of the abilities.[/i] |
Ok, this inspired an interesting thought...
Handle the three force powers as they are. Cost double to raise without a master, costs Attribute dice for first 1D on a template of each, etc...
Handle the Powers as "specializations" under the main force skill. With the cost being halved, that would mean the powers now cost the same to raise as a normal skill, but the force skills cost double (almost like advanced skills). Individual powers under 1 Force Skill go up whenever the Force Skill is raised. New powers cost a number of CP to acquire equal to the D in the related Force Skill. However... with Multi-Skill powers, make them a variation on Advanced skills - where as they cost 1CP per D per Force Skill involved, and the Character MUST have all the required Force Skills and Powers for it first, and it must start at 1D, not the D of the Force skill since it falls under Multiples.
Advantages to this method
• Each force power has it's own, unique Die Code.
• Powers can be raised and learned individually.
• Allows more variety in strength and efinition of Jedi and Force wielding Characters.
• Force power uses are now all single roll.
•Relatively simple and streamlined, and keeps with many existing D6 rules conventions without needing extensive rewrites or seriously unbalancing the system.
Disadvantages to this method
• Greater CP investment to learn and increase force related powers (especially multi powers that must be raised seperate of Force Skills).
• Need to reconfigure difficulties for new power structure.
• More paperwork needed on the part of Force users.
• Probably one or two more I can not think of yet... |
GAH!! A long post disappeared because of website/connection problems..
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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2 other downsides i see..
one is a counter to your last advantage.. doing this imo will not streamline the powers and in fact will make working them out more difficult, as you have to rewrite the powers more...
also need to reconfigure relationship/prox chart to new 'diff add ons'..
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | 2 other downsides i see..
one is a counter to your last advantage.. doing this imo will not streamline the powers and in fact will make working them out more difficult, as you have to rewrite the powers more... |
Not really - just make it one roll instead and add a modifier. No need to rewrite the powers.
| Quote: | | also need to reconfigure relationship/prox chart to new 'diff add ons'.. |
Again, not really. No need to rewrite the chart, just apply it differently.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | 2 other downsides i see..
one is a counter to your last advantage.. doing this imo will not streamline the powers and in fact will make working them out more difficult, as you have to rewrite the powers more...
also need to reconfigure relationship/prox chart to new 'diff add ons'.. |
Nah, you just have to go through the powers and change Moderate into Moderate / +4 (for secondary powers).
Same with other types of bonuses. If the modify a secondary power you just have to change +10 diff. to +3 for example. After that is done its smooth sailing..
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: |
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but what of powers that both (or all 3) have diff mods? like the projective telepathy which has prox for the cont roll and relationship for the other?>
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | but what of powers that both (or all 3) have diff mods? like the projective telepathy which has prox for the cont roll and relationship for the other?> |
As I pointed out, I havent checked if the rule 'highest difficulty = primary skill' holds true far all powers. Even if it holds true for most powers I will probably have to against this rule in some cases, and make a ruling in the case of a power having several difficulties at the same level.
For example a power that seems based on Sense by the description but has Control as the most difficult skill. Your example would be such a case. Id rule that Sense is the primary skill, both by the powers description, but also based on required powers.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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In cases like this, I have just condensed powers. Projective Telepathy and Receptive Telepathy are now just Telepathy. Sense power. Done.
For me, it's not so much about making the difficulty just right or finding that perfect balance between the RAW and the house rule. I'm more about letting a character be the concept envisioned by the player. So, there's really no need for multi-skill powers, in my book, other than the VERY advanced ones such as doppelganger, for example.
In my opinion, most of the powers fall clearly under one skill more than the others, and that is how I would determine which skill is the "main" one (bascially, GM discretion). Or, you could just go with the base difficulty to determine which skill is primary, and apply modifiers afterward.
So using a control/sense power where control is modified by relationship and sense is modified by proximity, with sense being the main skill (such as in this example with Projective Telepathy), sense is obviously the main skill while control is secondary, even if you're using the power on a creature you're touching whom you've never met before and is of a different species.
How's that? |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: |
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So basically it becomes real easy to use..
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Nah, you just have to go through the powers and change Moderate into Moderate / +4 (for secondary powers). |
Yep. I'm envisioning a rulebook and a pencil. Go through the list of force powers in the rule book and in pencil note which power is primary along with the new 'total' difficulty to roll against, add a second column (in pencil) to the Relationship and Proximity tables to indicate the addition to difficulty for secondary/tertiary powers, then pencil in a small table to show the additional difficulty for secondary/tertiary powers where a +5, +10, +15 is added to the difficulty. Done.
It's a bit of work up front, but in play it should go faster since only one die roll is required and the difficulty is pre-calculated. |
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