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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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In my opinion, and under the RAW, a knife thrower in a circus would be using Thrown Weapons to make his attack, not Melee Combat. A character who was good at Sleight of Hand, Thrown Weapons and Melee Combat would likely begin with a high Dex attribute (4D or so), then put skill dice in each of the appropriate skills, with the appropriate skill being used in the appropriate situation. If you wanted to pick a pocket, palm a coin, pick a lock, etc, you use Sleight of Hand; if you want to throw a knife and hit a target, you use Thrown Weapons; and if you want to hold a knife in your hand and stab something with it (even if that something is just a piece of table that happens to be located between two fingers), you use Melee Combat.
And using Melee Combat is not always about using maximum strength; it is about using appropriate strength. Not every target requires that a person put his full body force behind it. The key is knowing the proper degree of force to use. This is what is used when a character pulls their punch (so to speak) with the goal of only inflicting a Wound as opposed to hacking someone to death. Using maximum strength in every attack is the mark of an amateur; precision is the mark of a professional.
As far as Affinity Rule, I suggest using Advanced Skills. If you have (A) Knife Exhibitionist, with prerequisites of 5D each in Melee Combat, Thrown Weapons and Sleight of Hand, you can increase your skill in Knife Exhibitionist which is then added to your normal skill dice for any rolls.
EDIT: Alternately, if you wished to improve all of your Dex skills at once, just save up your CP to increase your Dex attribute.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Melee Weapons is about using a close combat weapon (such as a knife) and making it go where you want it to go (either into a person or just close to a person). |
So, what's the average melee weapons skill you give your surgeons? 7D?
Combat and repetition are totally different skills. Sleight of Hand is about deftly performing demanding manual dexterity tasks at high or extreme speed. I'd say the knife trick fits the bill.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16217
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | So, what's the average melee weapons skill you give your surgeons? 7D? |
That's a difference of speed. Surgeons take their time and make very slow, precise cuts. Melee Combat would be fast and precise.
| Quote: | | Combat and repetition are totally different skills. Sleight of Hand is about deftly performing demanding manual dexterity tasks at high or extreme speed. I'd say the knife trick fits the bill. |
Again, why bother having the Melee Combat skill for knife use if it isn't an indicator of how good you are at making a knife go where you want it to go?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2260
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think it comes down to the end result.
With Melee Combat, the end result one is usually after is to do as much damage as possible.
With the knife trick, the end result is to do as little damage as possible (ideally none).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16217
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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So, if you were trying to use your blaster pistol to shoot the center out of a Sabacc card being held up in the air, you would use Sleight of Hand instead of Blaster, since you aren't actually trying to shoot anyone?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16217
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Under the Sleight of Hand skill description in D6 Space, it covers picking mechanical locks or feats of prestidigitation without anyone noticing. Since you aren't using the knife to pick a lock, and you aren't really trying to hide what you are doing with the knife in this situation, Sleight of Hand (as officially described by WEG) doesn't apply.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Leon The Lion
Commander
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Seems everyone's mind is made up on which skill to use. Good, mine is too. 
I even typed myself up a neat little table of failure results.
Thinking on it some more, I won't make a Wild Die "1" an automatic hand-stabbing - far too likely. I'll just take away the Wild Die and one highest result and sum up normally. If the character still succeeds despite that, good for them.
I'm actually kinda excited to have this in my game now, which is somewhat unfortunate, as it will be some time yet before my PCs are in any place where this can happen. Oh well, something to look forward to. 
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2260
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So, if you were trying to use your blaster pistol to shoot the center out of a Sabacc card being held up in the air, you would use Sleight of Hand instead of Blaster, since you aren't actually trying to shoot anyone? |
In my view, shooting a card in this way is utilizing the same exact skill one is using when shooting a target, so I'd use their Blaster skill.
Conversely, with the knife trick, I see a character as doing something very different than what one does using a knife to cause harm to another.
That said, I don't have a big issue with a GM choosing the Melee Combat skill for the knife trick. I think any of the skills discussed (or even just going with DEX) could work.
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | So, if you were trying to use your blaster pistol to shoot the center out of a Sabacc card being held up in the air, you would use Sleight of Hand instead of Blaster, since you aren't actually trying to shoot anyone? |
In my view, shooting a card in this way is utilizing the same exact skill one is using when shooting a target, so I'd use their Blaster skill.
Conversely, with the knife trick, I see a character as doing something very different than what one does using a knife to cause harm to another. |
Exactly!
If someone used a stick instead of knife? Or sausage?
I bet a conjurer would did this better (with knife, stick or sausage) than a Specnaz soldier trained with knife combat. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16217
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | In my view, shooting a card in this way is utilizing the same exact skill one is using when shooting a target, so I'd use their Blaster skill.
Conversely, with the knife trick, I see a character as doing something very different than what one does using a knife to cause harm to another. |
Ah, but since you aren't using the blaster to cause anyone harm, it should be using a different skill from Blaster. This is, after all, the same argument you two are using to justify using Sleight of Hand instead of Melee Combat when using the knife. Since you aren't trying to actually hurt anyone when you are shooting the card, just performing a "trick", shouldn't it be Sleight of Hand, too?
And what exactly is the difference between using a blaster pistol to hit a target (whether that target is a piece of plastic or a living being's vital organ) and doing the exact same thing with a knife? Both Blaster and Melee Combat are about knowing how to use the weapon in question and to make it shoot / go where you want it to. Whether that is a sabacc card or the center of mass on a stormtrooper (with the blaster pistol) or an enemy's jugular vein or a section of table that happens to be between your own fingers (in the case of the knife) is just a measure of intent and difficulty, not difference in technique. It is not uncommon for a knife to be grasped blade-down and wielded like an icepick (as Bishop did), and whether or not a knife-wielder does so is a matter of training and personal preference, not two completely different sets of skills.
The official definition of "sleight" is "the use of dexterity or cunning, especially so as to deceive." By extension, Sleight of Hand is the cunning use of one's hands to deceive, such as by picking pockets, palming small objects, and (if you stretch the definition) picking mechanical locks. There is nothing subtle or deceptive about what is going on with this knife trick, and Sleight of Hand can only be applied by taking the broadest possible definition of the phrase "and other tricks of manual dexterity" and stretching it all out of proportion.
| Tupteq wrote: | | If someone used a stick instead of knife? Or sausage? |
If used in similar fashion to a knife for the purposes of this trick, I would count the stick as a Melee weapon, and the sausage as a comical parody of a weapon, and require the character to roll Melee Combat.
| Quote: | | I bet a conjurer would did this better (with knife, stick or sausage) than a Specnaz soldier trained with knife combat. |
This presupposes that a conjurer (assuming you mean a street or stage magician of some kind) would put all of his eggs in one basket by maxing out his Sleight of Hand skill, as opposed to broadening his skill base by putting some dice in Melee Combat (so that he could handle bladed weapons) and other appropriate skills (Persuasion, to interact with an audience, or Scholar: Stage Magic, to design new acts for his show).
And this isn't really the kind of thing a stage magician would do. Bishop pulled it off as a display of superhuman speed and reflexes, not as a display of subtle illusion magic.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2260
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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crmc, I don't think either side is going to persuade the other at this point, as it's quite clear you're entrenched in your pov. I've already pointed out that I'm not that married to my view, and think either option would be fine.
But, that said, I don't agree with your logic here. Having done a bit of the things being discussed (stage magic, as well as carrying and training with a firearm), I don't agree with your presuppositions.
To me the blaster fire, whether at a card or at a person, is using the exact same skill. As in somewhere between 99% and 100%. The only difference I can see is that one's adreneline kicks in when in combat with a real target. In other words, the person uses the same stance (feet at shoulder width), trains their eye to focus in the exact same way, does their breathing exactly the same, etc., etc.
But the 'knife trick' is considerably different than using the blade as a weapon. As in, to put a number to it, maybe 50% the same? (as opposed to the 99-100% similarity above).
If you don't see it as that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But continuing to post on this matter seems pointless, as I don't expect either "side" to suddenly come to an "Aha...I get it now!" moment.
But FWIW, I again think your perspective has some merit. If you were the GM at my table and you ruled to go with Melee Combat instead of DEX or Sleight of Hand, I'd be totally cool with that.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16217
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough. I suppose my primary objection is that, even if Melee Combat does not end up being an exact match for the skill needed to perform this trick, it is still a better match than Sleight of Hand, seeing as how, of the two skills, only one represents proficiency in using a knife, however unconventional that use may be.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fair enough. I suppose my primary objection is that, even if Melee Combat does not end up being an exact match for the skill needed to perform this trick, it is still a better match than Sleight of Hand, seeing as how, of the two skills, only one represents proficiency in using a knife, however unconventional that use may be. |
But the trick isn't about proficiency with a knife. You can do the knife game with other objects, a pencil for instance, or even a drinking straw. The whole thing is about eye-hand coordination, not fighting skill. So Sleight of Hand is a better match.
Now if you want a good argument for bringing melee into the mix, consider Iaijutsu. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16217
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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So, out of all the skills under Dexterity, only Sleight of Hand involves hand-eye coordination? While we're at it, maybe we should allow characters to substitute Sleight of Hand for Con if they are speaking in Sign Language.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | But the trick isn't about proficiency with a knife. You can do the knife game with other objects, a pencil for instance, or even a drinking straw. The whole thing is about eye-hand coordination, not fighting skill. So Sleight of Hand is a better match. |
So I can play a game of darts with sleight of hand (SoH) then, or a game of mumbley peg? People have said that SoH should be used because your not actually trying to damage someone, but the melee combat skill has nothing to do with damage that is an effect entirely dependent the weapon ans strength attribute. |
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