| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: Re: TK and grenades. |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | If i have a bad guy force user, use TK on a pc, who is carrying grenades (or even thermal detonators), to 'activate' them, would they just go off at the instant they are 'tked' or at the end of the round?
What would he a good 'roll' to try to get rid of them? |
I would say the grenades would, at best, go off on the end of the round, possibly the beginning of next round (grenades have between a 5 and 10 second fuse, some can be set longer). To get rid of them I would base it on how the grenades were being carried, possibly a Dexterity roll to undus a grenade belt and drop it, then a running roll to try to enhance movement to escape the blast? Maybe a dodge roll to duck behind cover?
Before you ask...Yes, this has happened in many a game I have played in.
| Quote: | Also, on TK.
If i use TK to say, hold a person in place, are they able to make any 'reaction' rolls against incomming attacks? Are they allowed to make a str check to break free each round, or just in the first round the DJ used TK? |
I would allow a strenght check to overpower the TK to break free, but if they couldn't overpower it, they would be unable to make reaction rolls of any sort. Keep in mind, that a Jedi holding a target for others to "free shot" is worthy of a Dark Side Point, unless they are trying to stun him.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jedi Skyler wrote: | Absorb/Dissipate Energy works on energy. The Force is an energy field. If an object is moving, it has telekinetic energy. Absorb/Dissipate could conceiveably bleed off the telekinetic energy surrounding the object, perhaps even to the point of removing enough energy so as to keep the object stationary.
And if use of the Force truly creates ripples that can be detected by other Jedi, and TK is basically a line-of-site power, then it stands to reason that the DJ trying to TK the pin would have to be close enough that the Jedi would detect the ripples. If they act fast enough or roll good enough, they could conceiveably detect what's going on and move to stop it.
I admit I may be reaching at straws, but I happen to be one of those who believes that the only limits a Jedi has (besides Light and dark) are those placed on him or her by their own lack of imagination. |
There are two problems I have with this situation, and I would not allow Absorb/Disipate energy to be used in thsi way:
1- There is no precedant in any of the WEG books suggesting Absorb/Disipate energy works on kinnetic or physical energy at all. This is especially not supported under the description of the power itself. Kinnetic and physical energies are vastly different from other types of energy, and most other energy has more in common than with Kinnetic energy. Telekinesis is a manipulation of Kinnetic energies, and for this reason i would not allow Absorb/Disipate to be used this way, as it contradicts the nature of the power I feel. Though a Jedi could certainly use his Own telekinesis to resist, or counter with a control roll if he is the target of the TK being used (a precedent already established in the core rules).
2- As absorb/dissipate energy was described as being used for energy directly affect the Force user in some way (blaster bolts, sunburns, electric shocks, all of which directly effect the force users own body) it should be in some way restricted to such uses. As the Telekinesis is being used on an object, not the force user, it would be outside of the effect of this power.
For the effect you describe I would suggest hashing out a new power, called maybe "Force Dissipation". Otherwise, I feel you are granting Absorb/Dissipate far too broad an area of effect, well beyond it's intentions. Especially given that under defining the force as an "Energy Field" it would allow a force user to "bleed off" any force power used on him. And further allowing it to be used at range would allow the force user to bleed off any force power used near him. Far too dangerous for such a low difficulty level presented under Absorb/Dissipate.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gry Sarth wrote: | | When you try to control someone with TK, the target can resist by adding their Control or Perception to your base difficulty, it has nothing to do with Strength. I think that should be rolled every round as the person is constantly trying to break free from the TK's grasp. Unless it breaks free, it can't perform dodges, parries maybe, with an increased difficulty. |
Telekinesis doesn't actually let you "control" people, only levitate according to the rules. Although the 2nd R&E rulebook does say to resist with Perception or control I have always disagreed as Telekinesis isn't affecting the mind, it is overpowering the body, and should be under strength. Control is an appropriate call, but for attribute resistance I feel grappling, wrestling, pinning, or forcing movement (as in using the person like a puppet with TK) should fall under overpowering their strength. I see this as making much more sense.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14088
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | There are two problems I have with this situation, and I would not allow Absorb/Disipate energy to be used in thsi way:
1- There is no precedant in any of the WEG books suggesting Absorb/Disipate energy works on kinnetic or physical energy at all. This is especially not supported under the description of the power itself. Kinnetic and physical energies are vastly different from other types of energy, and most other energy has more in common than with Kinnetic energy. Telekinesis is a manipulation of Kinnetic energies, and for this reason i would not allow Absorb/Disipate to be used this way, as it contradicts the nature of the power I feel. Though a Jedi could certainly use his Own telekinesis to resist, or counter with a control roll if he is the target of the TK being used (a precedent already established in the core rules).
2- As absorb/dissipate energy was described as being used for energy directly affect the Force user in some way (blaster bolts, sunburns, electric shocks, all of which directly effect the force users own body) it should be in some way restricted to such uses. As the Telekinesis is being used on an object, not the force user, it would be outside of the effect of this power.
For the effect you describe I would suggest hashing out a new power, called maybe "Force Dissipation". Otherwise, I feel you are granting Absorb/Dissipate far too broad an area of effect, well beyond it's intentions. Especially given that under defining the force as an "Energy Field" it would allow a force user to "bleed off" any force power used on him. And further allowing it to be used at range would allow the force user to bleed off any force power used near him. Far too dangerous for such a low difficulty level presented under Absorb/Dissipate.
|
In addition, Ab/Dis has a base diff + the weapons damage for resisting 'damage, which is what i would consider TK to be..
| Quote: | | Telekinesis doesn't actually let you "control" people, only levitate according to the rules. Although the 2nd R&E rulebook does say to resist with Perception or control I have always disagreed as Telekinesis isn't affecting the mind, it is overpowering the body, and should be under strength. Control is an appropriate call, but for attribute resistance I feel grappling, wrestling, pinning, or forcing movement (as in using the person like a puppet with TK) should fall under overpowering their strength. I see this as making much more sense. |
Fare enough, but would it be an 'all or nothing' roll (eg when the TK is first put into use) or a "once a round" roll to resist?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
For just resisting or breaking free of a TK grapple, I would have the TK roll strenght once, but the person breaking free could roll every round to break free (i.e. beat the TK roll). The Force user could always renew his hold, thus re-rolling his TK.
If using TK to "puppeteer" someone or something like a droid, it would be a new roll for each move or manuever he wanted to force.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14088
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Side question. Would that TK hold be considered a "life threatning" action, therefore allowing the PC to spend up to 5 CP on it to resist?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | There are two problems I have with this situation, and I would not allow Absorb/Disipate energy to be used in thsi way:
1- There is no precedant in any of the WEG books suggesting Absorb/Disipate energy works on kinnetic or physical energy at all. This is especially not supported under the description of the power itself. Kinnetic and physical energies are vastly different from other types of energy, and most other energy has more in common than with Kinnetic energy. Telekinesis is a manipulation of Kinnetic energies, and for this reason i would not allow Absorb/Disipate to be used this way, as it contradicts the nature of the power I feel. Though a Jedi could certainly use his Own telekinesis to resist, or counter with a control roll if he is the target of the TK being used (a precedent already established in the core rules).
2- As absorb/dissipate energy was described as being used for energy directly affect the Force user in some way (blaster bolts, sunburns, electric shocks, all of which directly effect the force users own body) it should be in some way restricted to such uses. As the Telekinesis is being used on an object, not the force user, it would be outside of the effect of this power. |
While the book may not specifically cite examples where this power is used to counter physical or kinetic energy, it also does not say that it CAN'T be used on such. Energy in any form is still energy, whether kinetic, physical, whatever. While I agree that there are differences between the different forms, since it's still in existence in some way I'd figure that the Jedi can detect it through the Force, and therefore affect it.
In addition, if you don't agree with this, then the Jedi should at least be able to attempt to absorb/dissipate the energy released when the grenade goes off. Might require CPs/FPs to be spent to succeed, but could still be done. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| If you say all forms of energy are the same, you had better have a PhD. in theoretical physics to back yourself up... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm not saying that "energy is energy is energy". There are obviously differences in the many forms energy takes. I'm just saying that the power name is Absorb/Dissipate Energy. Not "Absorb/Dissipate Kinetic Energy" or "Absorb/Dissipate Physical Energy." It just says ENERGY. Granted, the things the book lists as examples are issues directly affecting the Force user. However, they're listed as both the benchmarks and as comparable levels of energy. It doesn't specify that you can or can't affect this or that type of energy. And if a Jedi can absorb a blaster bolt and turn that around and channel it into a shield that begins to BLOCK said blaster bolts, it would seem then that he has the ability to change energy into different forms. That's the point I've been trying to make here. And again, (and obviously) not everyone's going to agree with my point of view here. I personally think the Jedi (Yoda included) could have been capable of much more than they ever did, but were limited by their imaginations, their perceptions, and even a bit by their own doctrines. I think that too many of them were like Luke ("I don't believe it." "That is why you fail.") and didn't achieve greater results simply because they didn't believe they could, or because they refused to allow themselves to believe they could. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Well then I disagree with you. Once physisicist figure out what kinetic energy is, I'd require a separate skill to convert one form of energy into another. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Argamoth wrote: | | Well then I disagree with you. Once physisicist figure out what kinetic energy is, I'd require a separate skill to convert one form of energy into another. |
That's alright. That's part of why I'm continuing this discussion. I want to hash this bad boy completely out.
However...
If they haven't yet figured it out, then would you require the seperate skill now? And if so, why? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14088
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jedi Skyler wrote: |
In addition, if you don't agree with this, then the Jedi should at least be able to attempt to absorb/dissipate the energy released when the grenade goes off. Might require CPs/FPs to be spent to succeed, but could still be done. |
That i already WOULD do, and have done in the past...
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| That I kinda figured. There's no arguing that there's energy being released by an explosion... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I dont think that Ab/Dis works versus the Force. It is more limitited. More power and understanding of the Force doesnt come to a jedi just by rolling high, it comes by learning, maybe inventing new powers.
Second and revised, page 140:
"This power allows the Jedi to absorb or dissipate energy, including light, heat, radiation and blaster bolts."
If it would work versus kinetic effects it would also work versus bullets. It would also work versus gravity, since this is only potential energy which converts into kinetic. It could even destroy mass, since mass is only energy (divided through cē).
Ab/Dis is imho not powerful enough to transform any kind of energy into another. I recommend inventing special powers if necessary, even if its just because of game balancing.
_________________
"We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing." G.B. Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
