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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | The writeup is clearly silly and broken. |
I think its the result of sloppy game design, and not intentional. Just like the paradoxes in about 90% of all time travelling movies (and not the ones that are meant to be in the plot). 
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Urban Spaceman
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 194
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | As a fix, we typically give the Jedi a free round to prepare against the attack when the danger sense is triggered. |
I like that idea a lot. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Random Numbers"] | atgxtg wrote: |
I'd say the power would have worked against the Jedi, since obviously the game master have to tell the guys lurking in the building that a Jedi are about to burst into the door. How would they otherwise declare their attack? And by doing that they would also perhaps suspect that there are other enemies around.
It can sometimes be dangerous to press a description of a power or a skill. If I was that Jedi I would keep very quiet about that power in that scenario... |
Other way around. The PC Jedi had the power up. Since he was running in and out of the room, the bad guys couldn't blast him becuase they didn't declare it the previous turn. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bren"][quote="atgxtg"] | Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
Danger Sense is on my list of banned powers...The bad guys have to declare the round in advance, but don't know where the Jedi is, so they can't declare an attack. |
The writeup is clearly silly and broken. |
Yup.
Since 2R&E doesn7t have declared actions I'm going to try:
1) If someone attacks the Jedi, the Jedi gets to surprise the attacker. This means a surprise action.
2) The Jedi gets to know how many actions the bad guys are doing, before he has to decide how many he will do.
I am thinking of combining it with that ability that lets the Jedi pick his spotin the initiative order, too. |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
Danger Sense is on my list of banned powers...The bad guys have to declare the round in advance, but don't know where the Jedi is, so they can't declare an attack. |
The writeup is clearly silly and broken. |
Yup.
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In this case it's not the write up that is broken. You could just as well reason that the guys actually know the Jedi is coming even though he is not. Game terms and real terms are not the same thing. Interpreting that rule in that silly way is just plain silly...
A sane person would just explain to the Jedi that if you enter the room you will be shot. End of story.
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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"In game terms, if a character plans to attack the Jedi on the next round, she must declare her action the round before. Attacking characters with Force skills may roll their control skill to increase the difficulty of using this power."
There is no 'rule' in this text that say that the GM can't ask the players if they want to attack the next round. The room is no box and the Jedi is not a cat...
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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@ZzaphodD: At the risk of going off topic a little, an answer to your question.
| Quote: | BTW, can you explain how these techniques works. Do you buy skill dice to roll vs difficulty?
Dark Side Temptation Test
Dark Side Score difficulty: Very Easy for using a Dark Side power (unless the power specifies a higher difficulty in its description), Easy for most minor moral crimes, Moderate for involuntary murder, Difficult for murder, Very Difficult for impassioned crimes, Heroic or higher for atrocities; opposed by your own Force attribute + 1D and if you did anything other than use a dark side power +2D if you expended a Force Point to perform the act, +3D if you spent a Force Point and called upon a dark side power with it
Time to Use: Free Action (Reaction)
Duration: Instantaneous
Reaction: This technique is used whenever a character performs an action that the Games Master decides warrants a dark side point.
If this technique is not successfully used you gain a dark side point and your dark side score therefore increases by +1. If you ever attain a dark side score equal to or higher than the lower of your own Perception or Knowledge attribute you become tainted. This makes you susceptible to Falling to the Dark Side. Whenever you gain a dark side point you must use the Resist the Fall technique or become a dark side character. If you ever attain a Dark Side score equal to or higher than the total of both your Perception and Knowledge you automatically fall to the dark side.
(A) Resist the Fall
Willpower Difficulty: Easy, opposed by your own Force + Dark Side score (the GM rolls those characteristics to oppose you)
Time to Use: Free Action (Reaction)
Reaction: this technique is used whenever you gain a dark side point to avoid falling to the dark side
Requires: Character must be tainted
If you successfully use this technique you do not become a Dark Side character. If you ever have a Dark Side score equal to or higher than the total of your Perception and Knowledge attributes added together you automatically fail to use this technique and become a dark side character. |
You don't buy dark side score. You have one pip in dark side score for each dark side point you have (our system allows for a far higher number of dark side points before you full to the dark side obviously). So with 15 dark side points you have a 5D dark side score. You roll this to resist gaining more dark side points. So the more evil you are the less likely you are to gain more dark side points. On the other hand, we force such a roll for even the least transgression.
Resist the full uses willpower. You can specialise in resisting the dark side but once you succumb (which is somewhat inevitable) you would gain no real benefit from the specialziation.
BTW, sorry about the force document not downloading. We have discovered this on a few computers now but its not a consistent flaw and we can't seem to work out what causes it. Hopefully we'll work it out eventually.
garhkal said:
| Quote: | | Wa... So you now not onlu get a skill roll (needing only 5) to resist gaining a darkside point from Auto point giving dark side force powers, but it also makes it harder to fall as you first have to be tainted THEN you get yet another skilll check to resist the fall... |
The roll to resist gaining a dark side point is based on the number you already have. Yes, we have a tainted bracket between light and dark as this seems to better represent what happens in the films and books.
However, there are more reasons you might have to resist gaining a dark side point. Using a force point to call upon the dark side to augment a force lightning roll to kill someone would warrant three rolls and three potential dark side points - one for the force point to call on the dark side, one for the dark side power and one for the attack through the force.
It won't be for everyone but we find it quite enjoyable and I assure you we have had people full to the dark side and quite quickly. the dice can be very cruel. On the other hand, the dark side is a massive temptation in our games. The allure of knowing there is a chance of getting away with it, no matter how small, make the dark side a terriblely appealing option. More experienced players learn not to risk it however. The dark side always snares you in the end. 8) |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. Not my cup of tea, so to speak, since it seems to allow a lot more evilness than normal before someone becomes tainted.. but if it works for ya.. good.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Random Numbers"][quote="atgxtg"] | Bren wrote: |
A sane person would just explain to the Jedi that if you enter the room you will be shot. End of story. |
Not even close. What happens if there are two Jedi? Or if the Jedi surprises the bad guys? Then the JEdi gets a suprise round AND a normal round before the bad guys can attack him. Or if the bad guys drop one PC but still have actions left over and would normally have swtiched targets? RThe power as written is just one bug headache.
IMO the problem is that characters are forced to declare what they are going to be doing next round, when they really don't know.
Danger Sense shouldn't limit the opponent's ability to act, but give the Jedi some advanced warning. IMO it should be of little value once combat has started. But as written it ends up being a great way for a Jedi to limit the NPCs actions. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | @ZzaphodD: At the risk of going off topic a little, an answer to your question.
| Quote: | BTW, can you explain how these techniques works. Do you buy skill dice to roll vs difficulty?
Dark Side Temptation Test
Dark Side Score difficulty: Very Easy for using a Dark Side power (unless the power specifies a higher difficulty in its description), Easy for most minor moral crimes, Moderate for involuntary murder, Difficult for murder, Very Difficult for impassioned crimes, Heroic or higher for atrocities; opposed by your own Force attribute + 1D and if you did anything other than use a dark side power +2D if you expended a Force Point to perform the act, +3D if you spent a Force Point and called upon a dark side power with it
Time to Use: Free Action (Reaction)
Duration: Instantaneous
Reaction: This technique is used whenever a character performs an action that the Games Master decides warrants a dark side point.
If this technique is not successfully used you gain a dark side point and your dark side score therefore increases by +1. If you ever attain a dark side score equal to or higher than the lower of your own Perception or Knowledge attribute you become tainted. This makes you susceptible to Falling to the Dark Side. Whenever you gain a dark side point you must use the Resist the Fall technique or become a dark side character. If you ever attain a Dark Side score equal to or higher than the total of both your Perception and Knowledge you automatically fall to the dark side.
(A) Resist the Fall
Willpower Difficulty: Easy, opposed by your own Force + Dark Side score (the GM rolls those characteristics to oppose you)
Time to Use: Free Action (Reaction)
Reaction: this technique is used whenever you gain a dark side point to avoid falling to the dark side
Requires: Character must be tainted
If you successfully use this technique you do not become a Dark Side character. If you ever have a Dark Side score equal to or higher than the total of your Perception and Knowledge attributes added together you automatically fail to use this technique and become a dark side character. |
You don't buy dark side score. You have one pip in dark side score for each dark side point you have (our system allows for a far higher number of dark side points before you full to the dark side obviously). So with 15 dark side points you have a 5D dark side score. You roll this to resist gaining more dark side points. So the more evil you are the less likely you are to gain more dark side points. On the other hand, we force such a roll for even the least transgression.
Resist the full uses willpower. You can specialise in resisting the dark side but once you succumb (which is somewhat inevitable) you would gain no real benefit from the specialziation.
BTW, sorry about the force document not downloading. We have discovered this on a few computers now but its not a consistent flaw and we can't seem to work out what causes it. Hopefully we'll work it out eventually.
garhkal said:
| Quote: | | Wa... So you now not onlu get a skill roll (needing only 5) to resist gaining a darkside point from Auto point giving dark side force powers, but it also makes it harder to fall as you first have to be tainted THEN you get yet another skilll check to resist the fall... |
The roll to resist gaining a dark side point is based on the number you already have. Yes, we have a tainted bracket between light and dark as this seems to better represent what happens in the films and books.
However, there are more reasons you might have to resist gaining a dark side point. Using a force point to call upon the dark side to augment a force lightning roll to kill someone would warrant three rolls and three potential dark side points - one for the force point to call on the dark side, one for the dark side power and one for the attack through the force.
It won't be for everyone but we find it quite enjoyable and I assure you we have had people full to the dark side and quite quickly. the dice can be very cruel. On the other hand, the dark side is a massive temptation in our games. The allure of knowing there is a chance of getting away with it, no matter how small, make the dark side a terriblely appealing option. More experienced players learn not to risk it however. The dark side always snares you in the end. 8) |
I started the thread and I dont mind.
I still dont get it.
| Quote: | (A) Resist the Fall
Willpower Difficulty: Easy, opposed by your own Force + Dark Side score (the GM rolls those characteristics to oppose you) |
So, do you have to roll an Easy Willpower test, or a Willpower test that beats your own Force + Dark Side Score (1 pip/DSP)?
I dont really like the test to resist the DSP as I like to keep that in my hand as a GM. But I like a better mechanic for turning to the dark side and have posted my rules for this in another thread. I have been thinking of a way of using either Control or Willpower to resist but havent so far found a really good solution.
I like the idea of being 'Tainted' at a certain level and characters turning automatically at an individual point determined by the characters abilities.
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So, do you have to roll an Easy Willpower test, or a Willpower test that beats your own Force + Dark Side Score (1 pip/DSP)? |
You have to make a willpower roll and it must beat both an easy difficulty (assigned by the GM) and the result of a roll of Force + Dark Side Score. This is simply because in my version of the rules every roll has a base difficulty even if its opposed. Even if the opposed roll is very low you must still beat the base difficulty. This is a consistency thing... I'm a real stickler for consistency.
| Quote: | | I dont really like the test to resist the DSP as I like to keep that in my hand as a GM. But I like a better mechanic for turning to the dark side and have posted my rules for this in another thread. |
The GM still decides what the base difficulty for the roll is and how often you need to roll so the control is still very much in the GMs hands. The rule represents a mechanic around which other rules could be built and importantly (for me at least) expalins why someone like the Emperor does not gain Dark Side points every time he kills a minion. Its just not evil enough for him. Since I have powers that only work when a character gains a dark side point (power designed to represent Sith reveling in their evil) this was important. The Emperor needs to blow up planets to get his dark side fix.
The system also allows a gradually connection between the individuals Force sensitivity and his need to follow the code. An individual with Force 1D is not going to get a lot of dark side points as long as he doesn't do anything outright evil but an individual with 4D better know the Jedi code and follow it to the letter or his is going to sky rocket for the most minor of offenses. This seems to me to represent what we actually see in the films. Individuals with only minor connections to the force have is easier than those gifted with a deep and profound connection.
| Quote: | | I have been thinking of a way of using either Control or Willpower to resist but havent so far found a really good solution. |
Definitely use Willpower. Control already does so much and it also ties into what I said above about people with high Force (skills) having to follow the code more exactly. Using control would have completely the opposite effect which I personally feel is thematically wrong for Star Wars. Willpower is already a vital skill but its by far the best fit I think unless you want to use Perception.
We felt Perception and Knowledge should play a roll but in our case they determine the range for tainted. When you dark side score (1 dark side point = 1 pip) equal the higher of the two attribtues you become tainted and now turning becomes a possiblity. Regardless of your rolls however, if your dark side score ever equals the total of the two added together you turn automatically.
As long as you enforce a strict interpretation of the Jedi code and make everyone roll whenever they break it (for whatever reasons) we have found our system to allow for great flexibility of characters while still allowing for characters to become tainted and turn. It is possible to play a tainted character by putting up willpower for example but it swallows character points and because of the way our Force Points work it makes them gradually dwindle away as well. Only by committing to either the Light or the Dark can you hope to advance and the dark option eventually leads to NPC status (unless we are running a dark side game which can be fun once in a while ).  |
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, then I understand your mechanics.
I allready use Willpower of Control (players choice, even though Control is harder if you have more DSPs) in my Will of the Dark Side rules, so Ill keep both Control and Willpower for consistency.
Your 'reverse' idea of making it harder for characters with high force powers Ill think about and see if it can be used in my rules.
Oh, so you dont become tainted until you DSS ackumulate into a number of whole dice equal to KNO or PER? Thats 6 DSPs minimum for humans then? I was thinking of using a simplified version with DSPs compared to the Abilities, meaning that humans would become tainted between 2-4 DSPs and automatically turn at between 4-8 DSPs. This means that a KNO/PER 2D Jedi would be very much easier turned to the dark side than a KNO/PER 4D, which seems very logical too me.
Zookie (16 yrs old KNO/PER 2D 'airhead' "Padawan"), Im looking at YOU
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Azai
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Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of Dark side and Light side.
Has anyone made their own system to counter balance the two?
Personally, I have always thrown out that using a certain power automatically grants you a DSP and just look at the intent of my PCs.
Though in the star wars universe it seems that the Dark side is a 'quick, and easy' way to power. Though your will may not always be your own.
And the light side is the 'long and hard journey' but the results in the end would be.... greater?
Has anyone put together any rules to reflect these ideas? That a player giving into the darkside could get really powerful really fast but their are other limits? And someone that sticks to the lightside gains some good advantages over time? |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | Has anyone put together any rules to reflect these ideas? That a player giving into the darkside could get really powerful really fast but their are other limits? And someone that sticks to the lightside gains some good advantages over time? |
I have not adjusted the rules. But as written, off the top of my head -
An in game advantage to the light side is it makes it easier for a band of heroes to work together and co-operate without back-stabbing or scheming against each other, whereas for the Dark Side "there are only two a master and an apprentice" and it seems that even then they scheme against each other (Vader vs. Palpatine, Palpatine vs. Dooku, etc.).
An out of game advantage is your character doesn't turn and hence is still accesible for you to play and to continue to increase your skills.  |
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Azai wrote: | | Has anyone put together any rules to reflect these ideas? That a player giving into the darkside could get really powerful really fast but their are other limits? And someone that sticks to the lightside gains some good advantages over time? |
I have not adjusted the rules. But as written, off the top of my head -
An in game advantage to the light side is it makes it easier for a band of heroes to work together and co-operate without back-stabbing or scheming against each other, whereas for the Dark Side "there are only two a master and an apprentice" and it seems that even then they scheme against each other (Vader vs. Palpatine, Palpatine vs. Dooku, etc.).
An out of game advantage is your character doesn't turn and hence is still accesible for you to play and to continue to increase your skills. |
Yes, and this is how I usually viewed it before. But then I encountered a system that really moved my view around. Why I want to give solid advantages , and disadvantage to the separate the 'paths' a PC can take.
The example was a role-playing community(Built off of D6 Star wars) where in this verse of star wars the dark side won and the Jedi Order was the Sith Order.
So there was a a lot of Sith around, and it was generally very hard for low to medium level light siders to 'stay alive' so to speak for the benefits DSP gave to the Sith users. In how it was used in this system it seemed the dark side was 'favored' in a way. Despite the obvious theme where the Sith Order was in control.
Though this just made me think about DSP and dark/light side path. So since I want to a run a campaign in the Old Republic setting, I do want to devise a system that separates the two paths a little more stat wise. To both encourage and discourage players to pick either the light or dark side. |
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