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atgxtg
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 Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | [
fficulty chart. |
One thing I like about 4pts is in aligns pretty closely with 1D per 4pts. So there is more granularity to the levels of effect. [/quote]
Yeah, but I feel that a semi-permanet loss of 1D is worth more than 4 points. So I'm in favor of matching the increments to the normal difficulty table. You won't see that many push backs (perhaps the word Force should be avoided here) if the normal scale is used. Plus, characters will probably spend a Cp or two to bump a result.
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GM: "your blades cross, hissing and sparking as you glare at Darth Badius -do you want to say anything to him before we go to the next round and roll for initiative?" |
Ah, yeah, that isn7t what I was thinking of as locked blades. I as thinking along the lines of a corps-de-corps where the two guys cross sword and push against each other.
if it is just flavor text and nothing happening, leaveit at tied results. One, it is boring when nothing happens, and two you shoudl see a lot of ties.
| Quote: | Yes. What is it with Imperial Designers and safety railings. I mean really, did leaving the railings off really save enough credits to pay for half a Death Star?  |
I bet he must have eliminated that department in his "New Order". But wait, no, the Old Republic was just as bad. All those open platforms and airspeeders. I guess your family cant sue somebody for negligence if you fall 2000 feet from a catwalk during a sleet storm in the Star Wars Universe. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | GM: "your blades cross, hissing and sparking as you glare at Darth Badius -do you want to say anything to him before we go to the next round and roll for initiative?" |
Ah, yeah, that isn7t what I was thinking of as locked blades. I as thinking along the lines of a corps-de-corps where the two guys cross sword and push against each other. |
This is where a Perception skill for Taunting would come in handy...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | This is where a Perception skill for Taunting would come in handy... |
Sure. Though if the player describes what the character is doing as "my Jedi goes, 'Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah' to Darth Badius" he better roll flipping heroic or I'm giving Darth Badius a free Dark Side FP next round. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | One thing I like about 4pts is in aligns pretty closely with 1D per 4pts. So there is more granularity to the levels of effect. |
Yeah, but I feel that a semi-permanet loss of 1D is worth more than 4 points. So I'm in favor of matching the increments to the normal difficulty table. You won't see that many push backs (perhaps the word Force should be avoided here) if the normal scale is used. Plus, characters will probably spend a Cp or two to bump a result. |
I'm not sure how permanent the loss is. Did you have some thoughts on duration?
RE: use of CPs - Of course, if they are using a FP they can't, according to the RAW, also use CPs. In addition, according to the RAW, using the CPs for attack might get you a DSP, though defense should be fine.
Good point on using "push" back. I like "Forced Back" but I agree we should avoid any confusion with the Force. Unless someone has a better idea, "Pushed Back" works for me.
I don't know that 4pt is the right interval. I still think this needs some playtesting before finalizing the size of the intervals. Also, it may need adjusting depending on what kind of other mods one uses to the Lightsaber Combat power and to bonus/penalty for Forms. In other words, I think we need to have an idea what the dice total in combat looks like and how wide a discrepancy we hope to accomodate. Currently I am keeping four different tables, pending some experience or data with what intervals work best. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | This is where a Perception skill for Taunting would come in handy... |
Sure. Though if the player describes what the character is doing as "my Jedi goes, 'Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah' to Darth Badius" he better roll flipping heroic or I'm giving Darth Badius a free Dark Side FP next round. |
HAha! You know, I don't normally quote the Clone Wars cartoon series, but there was a great fight scene where Luminara Unduli was dueling Asajj Ventress, and as part of the usual vocal interchange during the duel, Luminara verbally dissected Asajj's lightsaber technique and offered up a very clinical observation on Asajj's strengths and weaknesses. It made Ventress so angry that she immediately went on the offensive...
That could be an interesting application with the stamina rules I posted. Maybe a taunt wouldn't be sufficient to make a character lose all control and attack, risking a DSP, but it could rile them up to the point where they are required to go on the offensive, thereby accruing an increased stamina difficulty faster.
Personally, I like the idea of the Jedi flip side to Dun Moch being a calm, serene, dispassionate and entirely frank analysis of their opponent's weakness. It would make an interesting dichotomy to the Sith's hateful insinuations in combat.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | This is where a Perception skill for Taunting would come in handy... |
Sure. Though if the player describes what the character is doing as "my Jedi goes, 'Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah' to Darth Badius" he better roll flipping heroic or I'm giving Darth Badius a free Dark Side FP next round. |
I think Intimidate and Con should cover it. Do we ned a new skill.
P.S. Being trained by Count Dooku probably would have meant something if Dooku was still alive.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
P.S. Being trained by Count Dooku probably would have meant something if Dooku was still alive. |
I could never figure out why when Grevious claimed to have been trained by Dooku, Obi Wan didn't respond by asking: "So your master was the one my apprentice killed last week?"
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I could never figure out why when Grevious claimed to have been trained by Dooku, Obi Wan didn't respond by asking: "So your master was the one my apprentice killed last week?" |
The ROTS novel had a similar line, but I like the phrasing on yours better. Well played.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: |
P.S. Being trained by Count Dooku probably would have meant something if Dooku was still alive. |
I could never figure out why when Grevious claimed to have been trained by Dooku, Obi Wan didn't respond by asking: "So your master was the one my apprentice killed last week?" |
He does in the novelization.
| Quote: | Grievous: "Come on, then, Kenobi! Come for me! I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Lord Tyranus himself!"
OB1: "Do you mean Count Dooku? what a curious coincidence," Obi-Wan said with a deceptively pleasant smile, "I trained the man who killed him."
With a convulsive snarl, Grievous lunged. |
Read the novelization recently. I was pleasantly surprised how well the author depicts the characters and how much additional internal motivation he adds to explain their actions. Even Ani seems less whiny and OB1's actions on Mustafar seem much less cruel in the novel -where he new help for Anakin was on its way and that Palpatine was about to arrive so OB1 needed to flee.
EDIT:  I hate typos in quotes. Fixed (i) Count with a capital "C" and (ii) "what" has a vowel in there somewhere.
Last edited by Bren on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I'm not sure how permanent the loss is. Did you have some thoughts on duration? |
I was thinking `till then end of the fight. Maybe a little longer. Kinda like in SotC, where "stress" damage goes away shortly after a conflict is finished.
I think about 5 or ten minutes is about right. You can't just cut and duck for a round or two to get the dice back.
I could see something like a Stamina roll to get a die or two back after a minute or so. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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He does in the novelization. [/quote]
I know. I've read it. In general the novelizations tend to do a good job addressing things that happen in the films that don't always make sense. Unlike the films, the novels can rely on readers zipping though things at a fast pace, and not thinking things through. So things that can get glossed over on screen must be dealt with.
Grievous is so ineffective as a villain. It not that he is a bad design, just that he gets so little screen time, and spends most of that running away. He just doesn't have the chance to become a big baddie. At least notin the final film. Had the kept the part where he killed Shak-ti and some of the other cut scenes, it might have been different.
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R OB1's actions on Mustafar seem much less cruel in the novel |
I never really conasidered Obi's actions to be cruel. A bit stupid perhaps. he SHOULD have finished Vader off. In fact, knowing that Palpatine was coming makes his leaving Vader alive an even stuipider.
But then Episode III's ending is so contrived. Yoda and Obi-wan split up and face each Sith singly. Had they fought together, they might have done better. And then going off into hiding for 20 years so they can dump and even worse situation onto Luke. yes, I know the ending had to match up with Episode IV, but it shouldn't look like the characters have seen Episode IV already and are trying for the right ending. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I never really conasidered Obi's actions to be cruel. A bit stupid perhaps. he SHOULD have finished Vader off. In fact, knowing that Palpatine was coming makes his leaving Vader alive an even stuipider. |
After reading the novel, I don't think he ever wanted to kill Anakin and emotionally he still saw Anakin somewhere inside Vader. So he didn't want to kill him. But every time I've watched that seen it has looked intentionally cruel to leave Vader to be burned alive.
| Quote: | | But then Episode III's ending is so contrived. Yoda and Obi-wan split up and face each Sith singly. Had they fought together, they might have done better. And then going off into hiding for 20 years so they can dump and even worse situation onto Luke. yes, I know the ending had to match up with Episode IV, but it shouldn't look like the characters have seen Episode IV already and are trying for the right ending. |
Son's trying to attone for or fix their fathers' mistakes is a common theme in myth, legend, folklore, and in actually history too. But yes, it is a bit contrived.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I'm not sure how permanent the loss is. Did you have some thoughts on duration? |
I was thinking `till then end of the fight. Maybe a little longer. Kinda like in SotC, where "stress" damage goes away shortly after a conflict is finished.
I think about 5 or ten minutes is about right. You can't just cut and duck for a round or two to get the dice back.
I could see something like a Stamina roll to get a die or two back after a minute or so. |
Duration of the fight sounds about right for the winner. Then rolls stamina seems OK. For the loser, or someone who cut and ran, they might have to make a willpower roll to regain their composure first. I'm envisioning that if you are losing and choose to run, but are then forced to fight again, even after some time, you may be at a disadvantage. A Jedi that has to flee might have to spend time meditating and making willpower rolls to regain his full dice vs. that one opponent. Sort of a crisis of confidence for the loser. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | After reading the novel, I don't think he ever wanted to kill Anakin and emotionally he still saw Anakin somewhere inside Vader. So he didn't want to kill him. But every time I've watched that seen it has looked intentionally cruel to leave Vader to be burned alive. |
I didn't view it as Leaving Anakin to be burned alive. More like he just didn't have the hart to finish him off. I didn't see it as cuel in the film,. but simply that Obi0-wan is terriby conflicted and can't do it. Up until recently Anakin was his closest friend.
Yes, the novel does give more depth to this, but then books can do that. You can see what people are thinking and feeling in ways that you can't do in other media.
| Quote: | | Son's trying to attone for or fix their fathers' mistakes is a common theme in myth, legend, folklore, and in actually history too. But yes, it is a bit contrived. |
I havw no problem with the underlying themes and the story arc. I just think the ending of epsiode III sucks. It gives me the feeling of a bad campaign where the GM is forcing things to happen despite what the players do.
I realize that the film had to go in a cetain way so thatit would dovetail with Episode IV, but I think they could have done it a better way. Everytime I see Yoda wuss out against Sideous I think of his "Do. or Do not. There is no try." line from ESB. Yoda could have phoned that effort in.
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Duration of the fight sounds about right for the winner. Then rolls stamina seems OK. For the loser, or someone who cut and ran, they might have to make a willpower roll to regain their composure first. I'm envisioning that if you are losing and choose to run, but are then forced to fight again, even after some time, you may be at a disadvantage. A Jedi that has to flee might have to spend time meditating and making willpower rolls to regain his full dice vs. that one opponent. Sort of a crisis of confidence for the loser. |
I can see that too. In fact, some of the inspiration behind the looses here stem from Spirit of the Century. In that RPG "stress" is "stress" and you can swtich rom a phsyical conflict to a mental or social one. This is precisely what Darth Vader does toLuke on Cloud City, and seems a common theme in the films. But I'm not sure how to adapt that idea to D6. Maybe there is something about morale in the mini rules? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I can see that too. In fact, some of the inspiration behind the looses here stem from Spirit of the Century. In that RPG "stress" is "stress" and you can swtich rom a phsyical conflict to a mental or social one. This is precisely what Darth Vader does toLuke on Cloud City, and seems a common theme in the films. But I'm not sure how to adapt that idea to D6. Maybe there is something about morale in the mini rules? |
I've never played SOTC so I don't know that I fully understand how you are thinking the losing D's of lightsaber would work in a duel. Can you explain your thoughts a bit. It's possible that the difference I am seeing on how many points per level of effect may be due to not understanding the dice loss mechanic you have in mind.
Not sure about the minis morale for handling "stress."
Not to get into a whole long thread on the pros and cons of mechanics for PC actions, but in my experience, sometimes the player has a good handle on the moral stress of the character and can manage without a mechanic. Sometimes, a mechanic is desirable for a number of reasons (the two main reasons being the player doesn't have a good handle on the moral choices of the character or because it is more interesting to have the moral choice be unknown to the player). We sometimes use willpower for moral stresses, but it is a somewhat simplistic and blunt instrument that doesn't adequately simulate characters acting from a multitude of motives: anger, fear, greed, revenge, loyalty, generosity, lust, friendship, love, duty, etc. A system like Pendragons passions and paired opposed traits could cover the bases, but while I love that for Arthurian adventure and romance the mechanic just doesn't feel right to me for Star Wars. I recall you have played Pendragon, any thoughts on adopting a passions and paired trait kind of system for Star Wars? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Sure.
In SOTC characters have a "stress" track. This is kinda like hit points in other RPGs, except it doesn't track actual damage, but how close you are to loosing a conflict. If you take a hit that does more damage that your stress track can handle, THEN you taken damage, or in SOTC terms a "consequence". This is some sort of penalty, sometimes physical, sometimes psychological. The first such consequences is minor, and only lasts for a short time, but each successive one is more severe that the last. After three consequences, a character is defeated. Being defeated is to be avoided at all costs, since the opponent gets to decide [i]how you are defeated. This could include things like getting cut in half, or thrown down the shaft to the main reactor core. If the conflict is mental or social, so would the consequences and results for being defeated. For instance, being turned to the Dark Side would be a valid penalty for being defeated in a conflict where the other guy is trying to convert you to the Dark Side. And you can even switch types of conflict, like Vader attempting to convert Luke during the lightsaber duel on Bespin.
Now SOTC has a way of avoiding being defeated, called a concession. You have to do if BEFORE you get defeated. Basically, you make a "pitch" to the GM where you loose the conflict, bu you get to dictate the terms of your defeat. You have to make it interesting, since the GM can veto the idea if he doesn't like it. For instance, just saying that Luke ran away from Vader probably isn't going to fly. On the other hand, saying that Luke fals down the shaft and ends up clinging to the outside of Cloud City for his life, sounds like good drama, and leaves the PC is a tough spot, so it is more likely to be approved[/i]
In D6 Star Wars terms, I'm having Lightsaber skill doing triple duty. it is both skill, "stress" and "consequence". My idea is rather than one combatant just cutting down his opponent in a duel in a round or two (something that doesn't happen in the films), the combatants whittle down each other's skill dice, until either one combatant is defeated, or he escapes. A result more in line with the films.
Losing skill dice is essentially a way of being penalties that isn't as drastic or permanent as being bisected. Generally speaking, a character who is over matched will be able to see how the fight is going to go, and try to get away. Think Luke vs. Vader in ESB or Ahsoka vs. Ventress or Grievous in the Clone Wars TV series.
Now, per RAW, any of the dice lost would have been a full damage hit, a probably lethal, so I consider the die penalties to be rather moderate. Losing 3 or 4D in a single hit is basically telling the PC that he should have been killed by that last attack. Losing 3 or 4D over several rounds tells the PC that he should have been cut down several times, and he is in over his head. Which is a kinda way of bring the point home that actually removing said PCs head with a lightsaber.
Losing skill dice should also encourage plays to run when they are overmatched rather than simply buring some FPs are trying to power their way through it. A tactic that usually just escalates the PC
casualties.
That's what I was thinking. |
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