De-powering Lightsaber Combat

[ZzaphodD]

[Bren]

[DougRed4]

Found this thread as I'm still considering reworking either Force Points or Jedi abilities (to avoid the sharp curve of Jedi being too weak, then suddenly too powerful).

I'm wondering if anybody has considered using lightsaber combat from the 1E rules? I see that it's not a Force skill per se, but is much simplified.

[Quetzacotl]

Don't know the Lightsaber Combat rules of 1E, but we're also using a house rule to balance it:

LSC doesn't create MAPs, except for the activation (you have to roll Control and Sense, if you do that in the same round, then there will be a MAP, but the MAP for keeping the power up is removed).
You only get half your Sense and your Control to attack/damage, but both are not affected by MAPs.

That way, you can use LSC pretty early, but it's power curve isn't as high as the original (at around 4D the house rule evens out with the original version, and at higher lvls, the house rule is weaker than the original version).


Havn't really playtested it yet, so can't say if it really helps or not ^^

[Naaman]

This is the simplest, least hassle way I've heard of to balance LSC. It's still a teeny bit to powerful on the attack/parry side, and a teeny bit too weak on the damage side for my tastes, but functionally, there's no arguing with the playability of it. (I believe that one hit with a lightsaber should end almost any fight; that is consistent with the films).

[atgxtg]

We were about to test the following:



1 roll to activateRoll against lowest of Control or Sense
No MAP
Get +1 to Lightsaber and Damage per D (lower of Control or Sense).

Note that the +1 is a flat add and does not get converted to dice. That keeps it from getting too powerful, but is still nice as it will kick up the Jedi's minimum rolls, which is helpful in avoiding damaging one's self.

[DougRed4]

These are all good ideas, and I'm looking forward to testing them out. Once I nail things down some more, I plan on taking Darth Maul against an E1 Obi-Wan, then perhaps Luke vs. Vader to see if it plays out somewhat like what we see in the movies (i.e., more than just a round or two).

[vanir]

We've been using only a slight variation from RAW but it does require GM micromanagement of the combat round.

You roll to activate like RAW but if you make Sense and fail Control you still get Sense bonus to lightsabre skill but not Control bonus to damage.
This is consistent with Luke in ESB, Yoda clearly stated he lacked Control and when he fought Vader he could duel with him, but hit him with little appreciable damage at one point.

After activation any Force power that can be maintained only requires a 1MAP penalty to maintain as an act of will. So MAP the following rounds after lightsabre combat activation are only 1MAP penalty, but if you weren't successful with the Control roll (whether or not you were with Sense) you can attempt to reactivate at the normal 2MAP penalty.

This helps lower skilled Jedi since Sense is easy for LSC. If you get jumped by a dark Jedi and activate lightsabre combat, but fail the Control roll you can still defend yourself, but you're only going to do base lightsabre damage.

What I'm thinking about doing here is giving a Player option to add either Strength to lightsabre damage in melee strikes, or Control if they're successful on the Control roll for LSC, whichever is higher.
This will make low skilled Jedi extremely powerful, but we use a lot of powerful aliens in our parties and to be honest dark Jedi tend to get carved up left and right unless they've got quite high dice skills to handle combat MAPs and put up half a dozen combat powers.

It's funny, using RAW you guys are going "Jedi can't be beat" and in our games we're going "how can I make this Jedi NPC survive the PC party?"

Force Points are my issue. Against major villains PCs FP every round every time, so as characters (NPC or PC) run out, they go down. The only way to control use of FP is how they are awarded back to the PCs, no guarantee they respond to it, not a perfect system.

[DougRed4]

Yeah, I agree that FPs could be a problem, but I think there's a beautiful balancing factor that's already in the RAW. The GM simply shouldn't give them back to the players (replenish them) if they're just used to beat the snot out of the enemy.

Not one of my players has ever even used a FP yet, as there's no guarantee that they'll be replenished.

I plan on only giving them back if they're used in a very heroic fashion. Not just to survive against a deadly foe, but to save another, when one acts in a sacrificial manner, or if one is forced to use one to counteract a powerful foe that would otherwise eliminate the party.

I think this and the code that already restricts Jedi can really be used efficiently to limit some stuff. My Jedi player has already told me that he doesn't plan to use a FP unless he is forced to do so to counter a Dark Jedi (or something equivalent). Most of the players only have 1 FP, and - though the Jedi has 2 - they aren't keen on using them up and not ever seeing them again.

[DougRed4]

BTW, 1E had no such power as Lightsaber Combat. Anyone can use a lightsaber, but of course those who don't know what they are doing could end up hurting themselves.

Then Force users can add their Control to damage done with the weapon, and can use either their Sense or their Melee Parry when parrying in hand-to-hand combat.

[garhkal]

[vanir]

Well that's the real trick about RAW and FP usage, in dealing with Player/PC motivations as a ruling factor it invites argumentation from Players to justify FP usage and ultimately a GM ruling upon their frivolous use, which can make the gaming table a little uncomfortable for a while.

Say you use one against an understrength squad of five stormtroopers while trying to escape the death star with the stolen plans. The GM could argue the PCs did not even test the strengths of their opponents before using a FP to even see if one was necessary, as it turned out these were fresh recruits with minimal skill easily dominated by the PC party of a big tough wookiee and an expert gunslinger.
Meanwhile the Players can argue that escaping successfully with the stolen plans is so crucial to life in the galaxy and the rebellion that FP use is easily justified to ensure escape from any obstacle above all other considerations.
Meanwhile they've run out of FP when they face the sith lord in the hangar and scream unfair GM organisation of the gaming conditions. Let alone the arguments when you don't give the FP back later.

Okay bit of a rough example that's not quite how silly our games get (they do sometimes get silly), but you get what I mean.

[Quetzacotl]

Well, for a basis i would always say "you have to at least try without a FP first, to see if you can do it or not". Using a FP right from the beginning would, if it were me, always end as "you don't get your FP back". But at the same time, I would always intervene when someone just says "I'm using a FP" with something like "You know that you havn't even tested their strength (or something like that), so using a FP in this Situation will make you loose that FP forever, you won't get it back". That way they know beforehand that they won't get the FP back and can decide if they really want to use the FP...

That "should" prevent the usage of a FP right in the first round of combat against a Sith just to kill him immediately... or well, they can do it once, maybe twice, but then, when they really need it, they won't have any more left ^^

[Naaman]

I've never seen a FP used againsst any number of storm troopers... a CP on a poor strength roll to resist damage, maybe... but a FP? No.

I would also tend to take thisome step further: If you use a FP frivolously, you don't get it back, AND you forfeit some (all?) of the CPs you would have gained for that encounter. Using the Force as an "easy out" is also grounds for a DSP, per RAW.

[vanir]

Stormtroopers encountered in our games vary tremendously in stats. Many are combat experienced led by veteran NCOs capable of fighting regular PCs one for one no problem, in any kind of fight.
The basic Stormtrooper stats are under House rules, only for fresh recruits found at major bases and space stations or reserve units.
You might find tons of cannon fodder on the death star, but when the entire garrison of a spaceport is only a platoon of Stormtroopers chances are they're highly experienced combat veterans with an array of tailored weaponry.

The example I gave was loosely based on a party encounter with a full strength (10 man) squad of Radtroopers armed to the teeth. But the PC party was something like 9 strong and included kasa horansi, coynite, and fully armoured bounty hunter PCs. Due to the FP the Radtroopers didn't know what hit them, they were literally cut to pieces within the opening round, every last one.
Players agreed it was overkill, we let that one slide and agreed that a similar repeat would result in the loss of FP spent at the very least.