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How do you apply MAPs and why?
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enderandrew
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropping one die after each action is very broken.

Let's say I'm a decently powered Jedi.

I have 5D of Sense, and Lightsaber Combat at 8D. I have 13D there. Now I spend a Force Point and have 26D to attack with.

Should I be able to attack with 26 dice, then 25 dice, then 24 dice, then 23 dice, then 22 dice, then 21 dice, etc. all in one 5 second round?

It is already scary enough that with drop-at-once, I can probably take out 20 stormtroopers in one round, with each attack at 7D. However, with drop a die with each action, I can take out a whole bunch of really powerful characters in one round that way.

I think the rulebook reads in such a fashion that the official rule is drop-a-die after each roll is the correct interpretation, but I just don't play it that way.
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Lostboy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MAP's are simple.
On their iniaitive the player declares how many actions they wish to take in this round and every action beyond the first causes the player to recive one less dice in any dice pool they roll until their iniaitive resets, In other words every action that round includeing the first takes the same penelty to it's dice pool.

Using your example of 13D lightsaber attacking 5 stormtroopers would apply a penelty of 4D each attack for a total of 9D each without making any defences that round, a spent force point can double the dice pool of only one of those actions.

Reflexive defences can be made after all your actions have been used but they will count as action for the next round.

Soak rolls are never effected by MAP's

Hope this clears up any abiguity.
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enderandrew
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"When a character spends a Force Point, all of their skills attributes and special die codes are doubled for the round;"

This does not specify that only one action in that round is affected if you declare multiple actions. Though that might be a nice house rule.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
Dropping one die after each action is very broken.

Let's say I'm a decently powered Jedi.

I have 5D of Sense, and Lightsaber Combat at 8D. I have 13D there. Now I spend a Force Point and have 26D to attack with.

Should I be able to attack with 26 dice, then 25 dice, then 24 dice, then 23 dice, then 22 dice, then 21 dice, etc. all in one 5 second round?

It is already scary enough that with drop-at-once, I can probably take out 20 stormtroopers in one round, with each attack at 7D. However, with drop a die with each action, I can take out a whole bunch of really powerful characters in one round that way.

I think the rulebook reads in such a fashion that the official rule is drop-a-die after each roll is the correct interpretation, but I just don't play it that way.


I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way, the example in the rulebook about Luke shooting a proton torpedo into the Death Star's exhaust port takes the MAPs away from the dicepool before the force point doubling occurs. That means you've got 13D minus the number of actions then doubled.

Say you want to kill five storm troopers you'll still need a few actions for defence too as they won't just be standing there waiting to be killed.

If you assume the player strikes first he can kill one trooper before he gets a chance to shoot, then he needs four defence actions (possibly to reflect the blaster bolts back at the firers) then just to be sure another four attacks just to be sure the troopers stay down. That's ten actions when you consider that holding lightsaber combat up is also an action.

If the player spends a force point he gets (13-10)x2 or 6 for his dicepool.

Now six dice might be enough to kill all the storm troopers but spending a force point to beat five storm troopers is probably not all that heroic.
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Delkarnu
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I drop all at once. No reaction skills unless you save for it.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd assumed that the Jedi had saved four actions for defence, if they hadn't then they'd get their first hit then they'd get hit four times (assuming low difficulty as the Jedi is in close to hack and slash) then the Jedi gets to keep swinging.

I suppose they could gamble on their doubled strength to take the hits and save no actions for defence but that's pretty risky. Although it means less MAPs.
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obidancer
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though prone to discussion, it is of my understanding that, once you declare a defense action (parry or dodge), your roll becomes the new difficulty until the end of the round, no matter how people attack you.
Thus, only one defense action is really required.

Does it make sense? no really! but that's my understanding of the rules.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obidancer wrote:
Though prone to discussion, it is of my understanding that, once you declare a defense action (parry or dodge), your roll becomes the new difficulty until the end of the round, no matter how people attack you.
Thus, only one defense action is really required.

Does it make sense? no really! but that's my understanding of the rules.


I believe this is true however I'm not sure how this would apply to a Jedi batting away blaster bolts with a lightsaber as I think this is more like an opposed roll rather than a dodge which changes the difficulty of the attack.

Most people tend to play with one action per dodge/parry unless the player declares a full dodge/full parry
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Ankhanu
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Dodge, a single roll for all incoming attacks makes sense; you're moving from where you were, which is where people would aim, no matter how many shots are coming your way. For parries... things get a little more complicated and arguments for using a single roll are valid, but so are the arguments for using a parry per attack, as melee/brawl/lightsaber attacks kind of have to be dealt with individually... especially deflecting blaster bolts with a lightsaber where you're picking off each individual bolt. The ruling often depends on the situation.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may accept an argument for a single parry roll being applied to every bolt if the Jedi did not care where the deflected bolts went but I'd have to insist that the Jedi made seperate rolls if they wanted to direct every single deflected bolt, other GMs may well run it differently though.
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Delkarnu
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Parrying Melee, I don't use one per attack, I use one per opponent. Splitting your focus to two opponents, is more difficult than one, but per attack seems like it could be unbalancing and explotable.

"We're out of ammo, have to fight melee, but neither of us are too good at it, and he seems pretty good, 6 or 7D"

"I know, we both have 4D, we each make 3 attacks. He'll be down 5D to defend, and with 6 attacks one of them will hopefully be a 6 on the wild and do damage, and any 1s he rolls will probably be minus highest and we'll hit"
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delkarnu wrote:
For Parrying Melee, I don't use one per attack, I use one per opponent. Splitting your focus to two opponents, is more difficult than one, but per attack seems like it could be unbalancing and explotable.

"We're out of ammo, have to fight melee, but neither of us are too good at it, and he seems pretty good, 6 or 7D"

"I know, we both have 4D, we each make 3 attacks. He'll be down 5D to defend, and with 6 attacks one of them will hopefully be a 6 on the wild and do damage, and any 1s he rolls will probably be minus highest and we'll hit"


Yes this exploit may well work and it makes sense to me that it should but if the PCs didn't got to strike first that round they'd be on the defensive and would have to use some of their dice for parrying. Also the target could always choose a full parry and then both PCs would be using their 2Ds against 6 or 7D + base difficulty then if the PCs roll any ones with their tiny dicepools there would be quite a decent chance for some complications.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While one defense roll is required for each type of attack, those do add up. Imagine a fight where joe and his comrades are fighting 3 storm troopers (left of a group) who just got reinforced with a trio of royal guards.

If the guardsmen close to melee/brawl and each attacks 2 pcs that means each pc needs a melee parry (or brawl parry) but if each stormtrooper also shoots those pcs, then they also need a dodge. So taking that into account if our heroes decide to 'avoid' both types that means they have 2d off each action from the get go (giving them a third action to do one shot/hit/move)
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Delkarnu
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
I may accept an argument for a single parry roll being applied to every bolt if the Jedi did not care where the deflected bolts went but I'd have to insist that the Jedi made seperate rolls if they wanted to direct every single deflected bolt, other GMs may well run it differently though.


TotJ and R&E are badly worded, saying that you can use LS Combat to parry, but not if it is rolled per shot or one roll for all, but implies that it is one parry for the round, and one per shot to control where it hits.

I would say, if you have four shots coming in, one roll to parry. If you want to deflect two of the shots, three rolls, one to parry the shots, and two rolls to reflect the shots back.

I think the difficulty in parrying or dodging multiple shots, even though you only have to roll once, is the combined fire rules. 10 people combining fire can add 3D+1 to roll to hit (added to the highest skilled person) basic Stormies would roll 7D+1, Commandos 10D+1 (Lightsaber + Control would have to be 12D+1 to have even odds to parry, 13D+1 to be at even odds to parry and reflect one bolt)
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enderandrew
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delkarnu wrote:
TotJ and R&E are badly worded, saying that you can use LS Combat to parry, but not if it is rolled per shot or one roll for all, but implies that it is one parry for the round, and one per shot to control where it hits.

I would say, if you have four shots coming in, one roll to parry. If you want to deflect two of the shots, three rolls, one to parry the shots, and two rolls to reflect the shots back.

I think the difficulty in parrying or dodging multiple shots, even though you only have to roll once, is the combined fire rules. 10 people combining fire can add 3D+1 to roll to hit (added to the highest skilled person) basic Stormies would roll 7D+1, Commandos 10D+1 (Lightsaber + Control would have to be 12D+1 to have even odds to parry, 13D+1 to be at even odds to parry and reflect one bolt)


On this, we agree completely.
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