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Naaman
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 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
1) It is the high damage dice that cuase most of the problems, not the skill dice.
2) Jedi need a higher Lightsaber skill because Lightsaber is used in place of melee attack, melee parry, dodge, and blaster skills. With MAPs, nerfing the skill bonus puts Jedi at a skill disadvantage.
3) By using the lower of the two and splitting the dice as desired, Jedi skill get the personalized effect you want, and a power downgrade equivalent to what you want, while not killing off the skill bonus. Using the lower of the two skills ensure that the Jedi needs to work on both, and can't just max out one.
4) In the long run, with Control being so much more powerful that Sense, I expect the PCs will all have high Control and low Sense skills. |
Okay, I see what you mean here. And looking at just this variant on lightsaber combat makes your point solidly.
I have, however, changed several things about the Force, too, such as that a character can only learn a new power with each whole die he achieves in a skill. So in order to get those sense powers that the Jedi may want (or need as prerequisites to other powers) he has to invest more into each individual force skill. Or he can pay CPs to learn "extra" powers.
Also, many of the powers that "help" in combat have been revamped to make them more useful without adding bonuses to combat rolls. I nerfed Combat Sense, removing the 2D bonus, but made a slight change to the initiative effect that allows the Jedi who makes his sense roll to choose his actions after he hears someone else's actions, but before their actions take place. And danger sense, has been re-written to be a "passive" power that allows the Jedi to roll sense any time he is in danger of suffering damage. If successful, he may act immediately without rolling initiative. But with a weak sense skill, the power is useless. As it happens, Danger Sense is also a prerequisite to taking (A) Form 3 in my house rules.
Another thing I changed is that perception skills (such as sneak) may be used in place of Perception itself when resisting Force powers (when appropriate). A Jedi trying to locate someone through the Force must roll sense vs the targets perception or sneak (target's choice). Of course, if the target is not aware of the Jedi's presence, then he would not be sneaking, so must roll only perception.
Anyway, just a few examples of what my group has found to be more fun.
I will have to respectfully disagree about creating a dice pool allowing the customization that I'm looking for: The intent behind my version is to create a decision point when it comes to raising control or sense or lightsaber. In the RAW, once you have the LSC power (which should be immediately), you no longer need to raise the lightsaber skill. If you have "leftover" CPs after raising sense and control, you can get an additional pip to your total attack/parry rolls by raising both lightsaber and sense. Otherwise, you might as well just raise sense every time you want to get better at fighting (it's usually cheaper, too). The dice pool you're suggesting allows more flexibility than I want to. I want each Jedi player to actually feel like his CP allocation makes a difference to what his character is good at and not so good at. The more pronounced this effect, the better, IMHO.
Using the lower of the two skills only really ensures that the Jedi will raise both equally. What I want is for characters to be as different as possible from each other, and not to "penalize" someone who wants to have an awesome sense or alter or whatever and even neglect one or both of the other force skills (if that's what fits their concept). |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting logic there for sneak vs finding powers.. might have to adopt that.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Can't say I agree on using physical skills like Sneak to avoid Force powers. After all, just because you are concealing your physical presence does not mean that you are concealing your "aura" (for lack of a better word) in the Force. I could see more something like Willpower being used to quiet one's Force presence...
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Can't say I agree on using physical skills like Sneak to avoid Force powers. After all, just because you are concealing your physical presence does not mean that you are concealing your "aura" (for lack of a better word) in the Force. I could see more something like Willpower being used to quiet one's Force presence... |
Sure. What you're saying makes sense. We justify it by the fact that sneak actually isn't a physical skill in SWD6. It's a perception skill. If sneak were based on Dex, then there would be no argument for using it against Force users.
But, like I said, if the sneak-er doesn't know you're looking for him with the Force, he'd only get to roll his base perception.
If willpower were based on perception, then that would be the skill I used for all rolls to resist force effects that call for a perception roll.
If he does know that you can sense him in the Force, we could just abstract that he's rolling sneak with the "will" to evade detection in the force. Basically, if "willpower" represents a conscious effort to evade detection in the Force, why can't we just willfully use a perception based skill that evades detection?
Last edited by Naaman on Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, that premise is based on the WEG fallacy that Perception is the perfect attribute for resisting all Force attacks. What about Telekinetic Kill? Per the RAW, the character is resisting physical damage with a Perception roll instead of Strength, as though being able to perceive one's surroundings better than others will somehow help. IMO, each Force skill should be resisted by an appropriate skill or attribute, not a default to Perception. I use the following three:
Knowledge, if the character knows that a Force power is being used on him (such as knowing a Jedi is trying to read his mind with Receptive Telepathy, or to implant a hypnotic suggestion with Affect Mind).
Perception, if he doesn't know (such as with Dim Other's Senses or some uses of Affect Mind)
Strength, if it is a physical attack (TK Kill or Force Lightning). In the case of standard Telekinesis, I let the target resist with its Lifting skill if it can find something to grab hold of.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed. I let players choose whether to roll perception or strength when the Force power can actually cause damage.
It seems to me that "perception" is much broader than just awareness of surroundings. It actually seems to be the "wisdom" stat for D6. I honestly think that willpower would have been more appropriate as a perception skill, but I don't change it because I feel that it helps to increase the usefulness of the Knowledge attribute. I also agree that an argument can be made for keeping willpower under knowledge based on the fact that it represents your mental dedication and discipline, whereas perception represents cleverness and wits. Or perhaps his force of personality and sense of self worth. In my mind, Perception is also the stat that represents a characters (subconscious) connection to the Force.
For mind-affecting powers, I let the target choose between control, perception or willpower, and in some cases, I allow willpower to be added to control or perception. I usually only give a choice if the target has reason to believe the character may be trying to manipulate him (even if the character's use of the Force itself goes undetected). If the target is oblivious (such as to a receptive telepathy attempt from across the cantina), then it's just perception or control. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | It seems to me that "perception" is much broader than just awareness of surroundings. |
I make the distinction that Knowledge is about a character's understanding of himself and what he knows, while Perception is his understanding of the world and the people around him. In D&D terms, it splits Wisdom between Intelligence and Charisma.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I make the distinction that Knowledge is about a character's understanding of himself and what he knows, while Perception is his understanding of the world and the people around him. In D&D terms, it splits Wisdom between Intelligence and Charisma. |
Yeah, I can see that, too. Though, I think that that the Technical attribute and Knowledge attribute are more the "intelligence" of D6, even though Perception covers some of that ground as well.
Anyway... I think that making a certain variety of skills able to withstand uses of the Force helps to make a high Force skill more valuable. In turn, this helps to balance the fact that LSC reduces the importance of sense relative to control, allowing a Jedi with higher sense still have a meaningful role to play in a group, even if another Jedi focuses more on control.
Based on feedback, I may keep my rules the way the are with the change that it takes 2D of control to get a +1D bonus to damage. With an odd number of dice in control, the Jedi could just use the left over die to boost his lightsaber skill.
Although when I think about it, using the full control for damage shouldn't really create a problem with FP use, since even without the FP, the Jedi will get a one-hit kill. Anyway, I'll try it and see. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm wondering how your usage of these rules has worked out, Naaman.
I'm also bumping this, as there are a number of cool ideas and concepts I want to consider.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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They've worked great. Lightsabers in recent adventures have been rare, however ( my character being the only one for quite some time).
But battles are a lot more interesting than RAW. As you can see in my recent thread, I'm looking at another revamp, which I'll post later on. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Help me work out my lightsaber combat house rules |
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| Naaman wrote: | I've been playing d6 since 96 and usually play a Jedi. At first, it was fun to plow through enemies with total invincibility, but eventually, it get's a bit routine fighting anything (even the BBEG). So, I've come up with a revision to the rules to allow for more interesting fights while still allowing Jedi to be awesome. A lot of thought has gone into these rules and I will post my reasonings in following posts. Any critiques are welcome.
Here goes:
1) The lightsaber combat force power is completely removed and replaced with the following rules (there is no longer a need to roll control and/or sense to activate).
2) The Jedi rolls his lightsaber skill to wield his lightsaber.
3) He adds or subtracts his control dice to his damage with a lightsaber.
4) Any control dice not used to modify damage can be converted to a +1 bonus on his lightsaber skill roll (declare before rolling). A Jedi with 8D in lightsaber and 6D in control could roll 8D to attack/parry and 11D damage, or could roll 8D+6 to attack and parry and 5D damage (or anything in between).
5) The Jedi rolls sense to deflect blaster bolts (sense only, no lightsaber skill). If the sense roll succeeds by a margin of 10 or more (5 or more, maybe?), he may roll control to aim the deflected bolt at a target of his choice. |
We tested this out last night, but there was some confusion about what "(declare before rolling)" meant? Does one roll at the start of their turn/round? Or before each individual roll?
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Help me work out my lightsaber combat house rules |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | We tested this out last night, but there was some confusion about what "(declare before rolling)" meant? Does one roll at the start of their turn/round? Or before each individual roll? |
I think before each individual roll (this makes more sense - you try to control devastating force of your hit). |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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In that context, when I wrote it, you would declare before rolling your attack roll how much bonus you want to add to your skill (and therefore, how much less damage you're doing if you hit).
I didn't think it all the way through, but in reality, it should be that you must declare for the duration of the combat round, not per attack. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, it becomes really prone to abuse if you can do it right before you roll each time.
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | Yeah, it becomes really prone to abuse if you can do it right before you roll each time. |
Why?
You have a control (thank to Force) over your blade, you may decide if hit is stronger or weaker. You are a Jedi at all.
In my HR there's even more control over damage (I'll post them on forum within few days, I promise  ) |
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