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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
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So what, maybe for ships within 1-2su, FC can be removed and go by visual targetting.. Outside that range, sensors will be needed.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: |
Most regular people probably don't realize just how true that statement is.... |
I guess I'm not "regular people" 
What you posted in one of the reason why I'm not happy with the scaling rules. Basically, any targeting computer that can hit something the size of an ISD at a few miles distance, isn't going to find hitting a starfighter or even a person that much more difficult. The weapon might not be able to place the shot precisely on the target, but that's why artily fire multiple times at an area. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So what, maybe for ships within 1-2su, FC can be removed and go by visual targetting.. Outside that range, sensors will be needed. |
Something like that. Unless....fire control sensors have a passive mode. Do they? The regular sensors do, so maybe the FC does as well. Say something like no FC bonus to attack, and either one half or one quarter range? Or maybe 1 SU per D in the FC? |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the FC discussion:
I have no doubt that Vanir is correct. But do our games exist within real reality or cinematic reality?
In cinematic reality, you can spot the bogie on your tail by looking over your shoulder, and the outcome of dogfights is determined by the exceptional skills of our heroes, not the equipment that they have to work with.
Regarding tractor beams:
My guess is that an Imperial-class can tractor in a Victory-class Star Destroyer, if it is behind the VSD and keeps itself traveling in the same direction. That would countervail the VSD's engines, because both can travel at the same speed. I do think that at that scale, a smart VSD captain (or helmsman) might be able to maneuver in such a tactical way to overload the tractor beams (which are probably not designed to work on targets of a VSD's mass), but the ISD's captain (or helmsman) would have to also have a chance of maneuvering the ISD to match what the VSD is doing.
On the other hand, if the ISD is able to latch on to the VSD's bow, then maybe it can prevent it from maneuvering.
Probably a more interesting question is, what does 'being tractored' mean in terms of outcome? Does it prevent the vessels from going to lightspeed?
Anyway... I think it's best to think of it on the fly. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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It should stop a ship going into hyperspace, as we see in all films, there is a rapid acceleration.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Regarding the FC discussion:
I have no doubt that Vanir is correct. But do our games exist within real reality or cinematic reality? |
Yes. In other words a bit of both since our games need a bit more consistency than films do.
| Quote: |
In cinematic reality, you can spot the bogie on your tail by looking over your shoulder, and the outcome of dogfights is determined by the exceptional skills of our heroes, not the equipment that they have to work with. |
Which cinematic reality? One of the problems with cinematic reality is that it varies from genre to genre, from director to director or from series to series.
In general, seeing that not you see that bogie on your tail has a lot to do with how important your character, the enemy pilot, and your vehicles are in the overall story. A hero will, most likely, spot the bogie and, most likely, outfly and out shoot it. An extra will just get blown up so as to give "street cred" to the villain flying the bogie. A minor character could see it or not, depending on what the character's purpose is in the story. Luke, Jed Porkins, Biggs, and Wedge all wind up in about the same situation during the trench run, and all get different results. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | It should stop a ship going into hyperspace, as we see in all films, there is a rapid acceleration. |
As in, prevent (the hyperdrive will not engage) or deter (engaging the hyperdrive would result in the destruction of one or both of the vessels)?
| atgxtg wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | Regarding the FC discussion:
I have no doubt that Vanir is correct. But do our games exist within real reality or cinematic reality? |
Yes. In other words a bit of both since our games need a bit more consistency than films do.
Which cinematic reality? One of the problems with cinematic reality is that it varies from genre to genre, from director to director or from series to series. |
I guess that each GM needs to gauge what her/his group wants out of the game. How much cinematics can be afforded while keeping the players' disbelief at bay.
Of course, there will often be cases where there is disagreement on such things, and I doubt that such a grouping will be fun to play with. I also suspect that some will bring up such issue in order to voice some other discontent... but that's a different conversation. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | It should stop a ship going into hyperspace, as we see in all films, there is a rapid acceleration. |
As in, prevent (the hyperdrive will not engage) or deter (engaging the hyperdrive would result in the destruction of one or both of the vessels)? |
I'd say prevent (targeted ship can't ramp up to even enter hyperspace..)
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
Which cinematic reality? One of the problems with cinematic reality is that it varies from genre to genre, from director to director or from series to series. |
I guess that each GM needs to gauge what her/his group wants out of the game. How much cinematics can be afforded while keeping the players' disbelief at bay.
Of course, there will often be cases where there is disagreement on such things, and I doubt that such a grouping will be fun to play with. I also suspect that some will bring up such issue in order to voice some other discontent... but that's a different conversation.[/quote]
I'm not sure if I got my point across here. It's not simply a case of "how much" cinematic reality but also in what particular cinematic reality. So the decisions would be based on the cinematic reality of the Star Wars Universe. Now there is some stylitic difference between the films and with the various spin-offs, so it still isn't cut & dried. And, of course, each GM runs with his own slant of things. I've been know to bend or even suspend the SW style of play a little for a particular adventure here and there. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | As in, prevent (the hyperdrive will not engage) or deter (engaging the hyperdrive would result in the destruction of one or both of the vessels)? |
I'd say prevent (targeted ship can't ramp up to even enter hyperspace..) |
My inclination would be the opposite. Unless the hyperdrive system has a failsafe that will disable the hyperdrive from engaging, there's nothing to prevent the engines from firing up and launching the ship.
However, I may be persuaded otherwise. Answer me this: why do mass shadows prevent hyperdrives from being engaged? Is it because if ships were to engage their hyperdrives in the presence of mass shadows, their directional control would be affected by the gravitational pull of the shadow and thus spin the ship into destruction? Or, is there some other reason?
| atgxtg wrote: | | I'm not sure if I got my point across here. It's not simply a case of "how much" cinematic reality but also in what particular cinematic reality. So the decisions would be based on the cinematic reality of the Star Wars Universe. Now there is some stylitic difference between the films and with the various spin-offs, so it still isn't cut & dried. And, of course, each GM runs with his own slant of things. I've been know to bend or even suspend the SW style of play a little for a particular adventure here and there. |
Sure, I see what you're saying. It's a multidimensional concept, but is it all that multidimensional in the context in which we're presently discussing it? |
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Ral_Brelt
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Joined: 05 May 2013
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| Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Answer me this: why do mass shadows prevent hyperdrives from being engaged? Is it because if ships were to engage their hyperdrives in the presence of mass shadows, their directional control would be affected by the gravitational pull of the shadow and thus spin the ship into destruction? Or, is there some other reason? |
As I'm aware, a mass shadow is a physical representation of said item in real space. Its just shifted a bit in hyperspace. If a ship hits it...well imagine pointing your car at a reinforced concrete wall then ramming it full force into it. Boom...vehicle done, good maybe that you're done too. As I understand it, a ship hitting a mass shadow is the same story. The failsafes prevent such from happening to save lives and planets. That last bit is important because apparently damage that occurs to a shadow is reflected in real space. Wasn't there even an Imp super weapon that fired projectiles at hyperspace velocities at planets in the EU? |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
My inclination would be the opposite. Unless the hyperdrive system has a failsafe that will disable the hyperdrive from engaging, there's nothing to prevent the engines from firing up and launching the ship.
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In every film, when entering hyperspace, a ship 'sped up' to enter it.. Without that speed (and it can't move if its in a big enough tractor beam) how can that ship enter??
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Ral_Brelt wrote: | | As I'm aware, a mass shadow is a physical representation of said item in real space. Its just shifted a bit in hyperspace. If a ship hits it...well imagine pointing your car at a reinforced concrete wall then ramming it full force into it. Boom...vehicle done, good maybe that you're done too. As I understand it, a ship hitting a mass shadow is the same story. The failsafes prevent such from happening to save lives and planets. That last bit is important because apparently damage that occurs to a shadow is reflected in real space. Wasn't there even an Imp super weapon that fired projectiles at hyperspace velocities at planets in the EU? |
I don't know enough about that last bit.
But so your reading is that running the hyperdrive in a mass shadow is theoretically possible (if the failsafe is overridden) - it's just a really bad idea to do so. That's also my thought on hitting the hyperdrive while in a tractor beam.
| garhkal wrote: | | In every film, when entering hyperspace, a ship 'sped up' to enter it.. Without that speed (and it can't move if its in a big enough tractor beam) how can that ship enter?? |
I'm with you that it can't speed up with that tractor beam on it. However, that doesn't mean (in my mind) that the engines can't be engaged. If you hit those engines that would make it speed up, while the tractor beam's on it, it would throw the ship for a destructive spin.
Of course, that's the notion if it's some sort of engine that pushes the ship to lightspeed. Are you thinking of some different sort of propulsion? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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My take on it is that both reasons are valid.
First off there is a wield kind of relationships between realspace and hyperspace, so that stuff in realplace has some sort of analog in hyperspace. Strong gravitational pulls could draw a ship off course and result in a collision at FLT speeds. Very bad.
Secondly, a hyperdrive somehow moves the ship from realspace to it analogous position in hyperspace. Apparently, a strong gravitational field makes this transition harder to accomplish, which from a physics standpoint makes sense, since the engines would need to overcome the force of that gravity pull to achieve lightspeed. Jumping to lightspeed to close to a strong gravity well might be like going full throttle on a boat without casting off first or weighing anchor. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | My take on it is that both reasons are valid.
First off there is a wield kind of relationships between realspace and hyperspace, so that stuff in realplace has some sort of analog in hyperspace. Strong gravitational pulls could draw a ship off course and result in a collision at FLT speeds. Very bad.
Secondly, a hyperdrive somehow moves the ship from realspace to it analogous position in hyperspace. Apparently, a strong gravitational field makes this transition harder to accomplish, which from a physics standpoint makes sense, since the engines would need to overcome the force of that gravity pull to achieve lightspeed. Jumping to lightspeed to close to a strong gravity well might be like going full throttle on a boat without casting off first or weighing anchor. |
Okay, I can see both of these ideas working, an d even simultaneously. Also, I think that unless ships are specifically modified, they will have failsafes in place that only a very good rigger would be able to circumvent. Also, that rigger might have to be somewhat insane in order to want to.
I think the remaining question is how dangerous is it to engage the hyperdrive while in a mass shadow, and when being tugged by a tractor beam, provided that the failsafes are overridden.
It would be my inclination to think that the gravity well might be like you say, a boat tugging away from the pier - ie. making a lot of noise and spending a lot of energy without going anywhere. A tractor beam would only have the same effect if it were being tugged directly from behind. Otherwise, it would be like that same boat, but the rope that keeps in on shore is not directly in the back, and as a result the ship wheels around and may hit the tractoring ship, depending on the size of the ship. In your words: "Very bad." |
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