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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I hope no one took my suggestion to mean that you inform them they should be tried convicted and executed in one fell swoop. They should get a trial if they can be caught. If not, and if they are a large enough blip on the Empire's radar, they should have to deal with occasional airstrikes by TIE Bombers and stuff like that. |
It was your comment that I took to mean that the best way to deal with a PC who was doing evil was to make an arbitrary decision to deal with them. You even posted a little snippet about a criminal who killed people and months later was found and shot dead by a police officer.
That, to me, indicated that you were suggesting arbitrary justice being dispatched in the place of handing out a DSP.
If that wasn't your intent, I think your example may have inadvertantly demonstrated a method you did not intend. |
Well, having vigilantes, law enforcement, even hostile military action is fine in my book, but that doesn't mean the players don't get to react.
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Zarm R'keeg
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. Keep trying to think of something to say, but... I believe we are more or less coming from totally different planets on this.  I think DSPs are very much intended to be a consequence of committing evil, marking a character's decline toward a path of accepting and turning to evil. They are a consequence that can't be weaseled out of or avoided, which most 'in-game reprisals' could. And that's the point. An indelible consequence. A moral marker in a fairly black-and-white, good-and-evil kind of universe (I think that's the point, Bren, with the 'good guys' killing the 'bad guys' and the like- Star Wars very much IS that kind of black-and-white). And something to make PCs that don't want to turn evil think twice about doing evil- not something that they can roleplay their way out of (which would just kinda make them into monsters, wouldn't it? "I've done evil, here come the consequences- oh look, I beat them, so I got away scott-free... I can do whatever evil I want without consequences because I HAVE THE POWER." Not might makes right, per se, but might-makes-consequences-meaningless). A consequence the PCs can overcome by a good roll misses the point of a consequence entirely.
I'd be happy to speculate on NPCs, but yeah, I think that Dr. Evzan has turned to the dark side. Average rank-and-file trooper or Imp officer? Probably not- they haven't had that much of a chance to do anything Dark Side-worthy unless its a trooper squad under the command of someone like Vader or an Inquisitor that's had them massacring civilians.
And while I get what you're saying about the difference between a good action and heroism, and the effort involved, Fallon- I think a player committing intentional murder (which is 99% of what I award or even threaten DSPs for), while it may not be effortless, is still extremely impactful- above-and-beyond enough to justify a DSP and/or a significant step on the road to becoming evil. I'm not talking about handing out DSPs for jaywalking, here.  I'm talking intentional murder of a civilian, helpless captive, or other innocent outside of wartime, self-defense, or any kind of law. I don't see where it can get much worse than that. If they're going around killing on a regular basis and enjoying that- or shooting spouses or children- or using Force Points to commit intentionally evil acts (yeah, right- how often does THAT happen? Sorry, not a realistic determinant), then those are things that indicate they are ALREADY on the Dark Side- that should be the destination, not the level of provocation required to take the first step on a journey. In my book, if it reaches the levels that you guys are talking about as a DSP-provocation (for instance "becoming a serious issue and continuing pattern of extremely malicious and heinous activity, showing the character has not only clearly embraced evil, but is dedicated to it, and enjoys it even"), then the characters are already Dark Side and refusing to admit it. It's kind of like saying "I do not call the fire department or consider the building on fire until it's already burned to the ground."
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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If your plot-type consequences can be weaseled out of or beat so easily, you may be doing them wrong.
If Blaine, my player's character, were to commit murder on a civilized without a FP, I would not award a DSP. It's in the RAW, which I treat as a contract between the players and the GM. I would, however, send police after him. If he ran, they would send bounty hunters. If he fought off those bounty hunters, they would send groups of bounty hunters. If he killed any of the bounty hunters, he would be guilty of more murders. If he spent a Force Point fighting off those bounty hunters, he would get a DSP. In this chain of events he would lose all his friends, most of his property and assets, and his good name.
I think a man can commit murder without becoming evil. I say there are differences between bad men and evil men. I think that evil demands more of a commitment than just a crime of passion.
Picture this: a father comes home from his work as a propulsion engineer for Rendilli Stardrives. He finds his next door neighbor molesting his daughter. He chases the man off and sees to his daughter. Later that night, he takes his blaster from under his bed, walks over to his neigbor's house, breaks down the door, and shoots him fatally in the chest. That's premeditated murder of a defenseless man, but is that worth a DSP?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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If your plot-type consequences can be weaseled out of or beat so easily, you may be doing them wrong.
If Blaine, my player's character, were to commit murder on a civilized without a FP, I would not award a DSP. It's in the RAW, which I treat as a contract between the players and the GM. I would, however, send police after him. If he ran, they would send bounty hunters. If he fought off those bounty hunters, they would send groups of bounty hunters. If he killed any of the bounty hunters, he would be guilty of more murders. If he spent a Force Point fighting off those bounty hunters, he would get a DSP. In this chain of events he would lose all his friends, most of his property and assets, and his good name.
I think a man can commit murder without becoming evil. I say there are differences between bad men and evil men. I think that evil demands more of a commitment than just a crime of passion.
Picture this: a father comes home from his work as a propulsion engineer for Rendilli Stardrives. He finds his next door neighbor molesting his daughter. He chases the man off and sees to his daughter. Later that night, he takes his blaster from under his bed, walks over to his neigbor's house, breaks down the door, and shoots him fatally in the chest. That's premeditated murder of a defenseless man, but is that worth a DSP? Is that man on his way to becoming evil, keeping apace with Grand Moff Tarkin? Or is he a garden variety criminal, who has made a mistake?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | "I do not call the fire department or consider the building on fire until it's already burned to the ground." |
I think you misinterpret or misunderstand as it is not even close to the same thing as I described (and this was compared to my words). It's apples to lightbulbs.
As I said in several posts prior, there are different degrees to acts that might be morally reprehensible. I do not give Dark Side Points lightly, and for non force users there is more that will not immediately earn a darkside point that would for a Force Sensitive or Jedi - it starts with in game actions (lost of trust of friendly NPCs, making enemies, criminal records, bounties, - in that hearing I discussed, whether or not the players had convinced the republic not to charge or extradite, they had many consequences left to deal with - they would not have "weaseled out" of anything, just had an oportunity to avoid the part of it that would have been carreer ending immediately). When it is clear the player's character is acting evil just because then that Garner's a Dark Side Point (and that IS what the rules as written are for Dark Side Points - acting evil). Murder, theft, vandalism are all morally reprehensible, but depending on the circumstances are not in themselves worthy of a DSP the first or second time a character commits them unless particularly heinous (i.e. I'm not going to just kill him, I'm going to kill him slow...torture him. I want to prolong it and make him suffer." - ok, DSP... but "we can't drag prisoners around through the forest, he'll give away our position. I shoot him" = Wrong, but no DSP yet).
Another thing is context. A Jedi working his way through the fallen after a battle and killing any survivors should definately garner a Dark Side Point as this is morally reprehensible and contrary to the ways of the Jedi and the Force. However, a Non-Force Sensitive Mercenary, Soldier, Outlaw, or Pirate doing the same thing, while still morally reprehensible (and certainly any Jedi's or Force Sensitives with him should try to stop him) I do not feel should get a Dark Side Point, as this is an aspect of war, and in the eyes of such a character is justifiable (and done all throughout history even by "honorable men"). Certainly word of such actions and deeds will spread, and earn the character a reputation, and will definately come back to bite them over and over again - without need for a Dark Side Point.
However, in many ways it could be said that your proposal on how easily to award DSPs even to non-force sensitive characters is like running a D&D game where every player's character has to follow the Paladin's code of honor or else...even if not a Paladin.
I don't disagree that Star Wars the Roleplaying Game is meant to be that kind of black and white. I also feel that, while they can be justified and in the spirit of the rules, Dark Side Points and non-Force Sensitive characters can be a slippery slope and should use different standards and require a greater evil or act than for a Force Sensitive. Just as a Force Sensitive does not have to be aas strictly adherent as a Jedi. I do feel that only handing them out when a player announces the expendature of Force Points to commit said acts is an oversight as players can simply avoid this and never garner such points. I do not, however, feel Dark Side Points should be used as a hammer to force compliance - there use should be careful, meaningful, justifiable beyond any doubt, and reserved for truly evil acts as that is what the dark side represents.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:58 am Post subject: |
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To me, the don't gain a DSP for NFS unless they spent a FP while performing evil was wrong of the book to say.. but it has been rare for me to give NFS' pcs dsps otherwise..
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | I do feel that only handing them out when a player announces the expendature of Force Points to commit said acts is an oversight as players can simply avoid this and never garner such points. I do not, however, feel Dark Side Points should be used as a hammer to force compliance - there use should be careful, meaningful, justifiable beyond any doubt, and reserved for truly evil acts as that is what the dark side represents. |
Well, I don't disagree with that at all- I think we just have different standards of what constitutes the truly evil acts (such as Bren's child/spouse shooting...). And I don't hold the non-FS to a Jedi-esque standard (there have been battlefield executions that I've let slide...)... I just believe that a single act of wanton, intentional murder can still act as a justifiable-beyond-all-doubt cause.
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Kaloth Varsk
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Picture this: a father comes home from his work as a propulsion engineer for Rendilli Stardrives. He finds his next door neighbor molesting his daughter. He chases the man off and sees to his daughter. Later that night, he takes his blaster from under his bed, walks over to his neigbor's house, breaks down the door, and shoots him fatally in the chest. That's premeditated murder of a defenseless man, but is that worth a DSP? |
ABSOLUTELY!!!
If that is the only evil act he commits, has he fallen to the darkside? No. However, whether he feels justified or not, he has committed an evil act that will have a lasting impact on his character, and that is what the DSP represents. |
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Grimace
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A Jedi working his way through the fallen after a battle and killing any survivors should definately garner a Dark Side Point as this is morally reprehensible and contrary to the ways of the Jedi and the Force. However, a Non-Force Sensitive Mercenary, Soldier, Outlaw, or Pirate doing the same thing, while still morally reprehensible (and certainly any Jedi's or Force Sensitives with him should try to stop him) |
| Quote: | | where every player's character has to follow the Paladin's code of honor or else...even if not a Paladin. |
Good grief! Talk about generalizing the opposing side as an "all or nothing"!
It's evident some of you guys play decidely darker, decidedly less moral, possibly even bad-guy oriented games. Not everyone else does though! And just because they don't doesn't mean they hold all characters to the same code as the Jedi.
I hate it when people seem to equate all Force Sensitive characters as Jedi. They're NOT! Jedi are Force Sensitive, yes, but not all Force Sensitive are Jedi. Nor are all Force Sensitive characters even interested in becoming a student of the Force.
There are three classifications: Non-Force Sensitive, Force Sensitive, Force Sensitive Force User/Jedi.
Likewise there are three levels of difference between how I deal with DSPs in my games. Jedi can get them by simply not acting against evil, as well as performing evil. Force Sensitive can get them by doing evil things. Sometimes they can get them without warning if they perpetrate a truly evil act, such as:
| Quote: | | a father comes home from his work as a propulsion engineer for Rendilli Stardrives. He finds his next door neighbor molesting his daughter. He chases the man off and sees to his daughter. Later that night, he takes his blaster from under his bed, walks over to his neigbor's house, breaks down the door, and shoots him fatally in the chest. |
A Non-Force Sensitive could do the above and likely not get a DSP, but might get a warning that the character is skirting dangerously close to the dark side. Should this character do the following though, he would certainly get a DSP in my book.
"A neighbor knows the guy next door works at Rendilli Stardrives and wants to gain access to rob the business. He grabs his blaster and goes next door, catching the man and his daughter at home. He ties up the man and the daughter and demands the secret passcodes to get into the business. The man refuses and he beats the man in front of his daughter. Still the man refuses to give the information. So he decides to beat on the daughter to get the man to talk. The man still won't give the information. So the intruder shoots the daughter to get the man to talk. The man tells the information, and the intruder then beats the man unconcious so that he won't be able to let anyone know about the break in until its too late."
Even as a Non-FS, this guy isn't doing just a simple act of war, or a simple act of evil like stealing some money. This guy is beating up bound and helpless people, and shooting other people simply to gain information. That's evil in my book.
Now some of you obviously don't think that's evil, or "bad enough" or whatever. That's your prerogative. It doesn't mean that my, or others, opinion is wrong. If you want to go by the RAW, that's fine. You can have psychopathic killers in your group if you want. You can turn your game into a killing fest and law enforcement hunt as the game hunts for your player characters. Some of us simply choose to use an aspect of the rules that already takes into account good and evil and give DSPs for those sorts of things. They don't have to spend a FP for me to give a DSP. But I don't hand out DSPs the same for Jedi as I do for Force Sensitives. Nor do I hand out DSPs the same for Force Sensitives and Non-Force Sensitives. Though I will hand out DSPs for non-Force Point evil perpetrated by Non-FS characters.
Face it, guys, people run games differently! This "you need to do it this way" or "I can't believe you are so strict" is just SILLY!
Accept that some of us would give DSPs for shooting dedicated medics and we'll accept that you guys don't think certain evil actions, no matter how heinous, will warrant a DSP for a Non-FS character. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be evil of npcs to shoot medics? |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | As I said in several posts prior, there are different degrees to acts that might be morally reprehensible. I do not give Dark Side Points lightly, and for non force users there is more that will not immediately earn a darkside point that would for a Force Sensitive or Jedi...I do not, however, feel Dark Side Points should be used as a hammer to force compliance - there use should be careful, meaningful, justifiable beyond any doubt, and reserved for truly evil acts as that is what the dark side represents. |
I didn’t want to repeat the entire post, but well said.
| Grimace wrote: | There are three classifications: Non-Force Sensitive, Force Sensitive, Force Sensitive Force User/Jedi.
Likewise there are three levels of difference between how I deal with DSPs in my games. |
Yes. Same here.
| Grimace wrote: | | Even as a Non-FS, this guy isn't doing just a simple act of war, or a simple act of evil like stealing some money. This guy is beating up bound and helpless people, and shooting other people simply to gain information. That's evil in my book. |
Yes. I said essentially that on page 1.
| Grimace wrote: | | If you want to go by the RAW, that's fine. You can have psychopathic killers in your group if you want. You can turn your game into a killing fest and law enforcement hunt as the game hunts for your player characters. Some of us simply choose to use an aspect of the rules that already takes into account good and evil and give DSPs for those sorts of things. |
Grimace I don’t think anyone here has advocated running “psychopathic killers” or turning their game into “a killing fest” and I think mischaracterizing those that are disagreeing with you in that fashion adds nothing to the dialog and is needlessly provocative and counter to your stated desire not to separate D6 fans.
It may be worth repeating what I said on page 1, since it seems it was misunderstood by some.
| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Is shooting non combatants really DSP worthy if you are not force sensitive? |
Kind of depends. Shooting a room full of preschoolers at point blank range. Yeah I'd probably give out a DSP for that.
Shooting a couple of noncombatants - even preschoolers - by accident - No DSP.
Shooting a spouse or child to make the survivor talk - maybe a DSP, but probably a DSPip.
Torturing the spouse or child to death as above – probably a DSP and definitely a DSPip.
Mostly I see DSPs for nonforce sensitives as a way of characterizing and keeping score of how evil they are on a scale of 0-7. (More or less a Lichert scale.) Where 7 is a vicious serial killer or Hitler or some such. It's not usually worth getting too worked up about the exact numbers. |
I’m not saying that PCs or NPCs can kill with no Dark Side consequence. I am saying that a simple 1 DSP per death is too simplistic, doesn't accurately reflect what we see in the films, makes Star Wars too black and white even for Space Opera (where some bad guys and gals can repent or come over to the Light Side) and simply doesn’t work for me.
And I see tracking Dark Side Points as useful for any character - PC or NPC - so I would like the system to work for both PCs and NPCs. That is one reason why I don’t want to hand out 1 DSP per innocent or noncombatant killed since it will in effect cause most if not all characters who have killed 4 or more people to succumb to the Dark Side. Which will cause many if not most bad guys the players encounter to be Dark Siders. I prefer Dark Siders to be not a dime a dozen, but both more rare and more memorable. YMMV. |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | | Good grief! Talk about generalizing the opposing side as an "all or nothing"! |
ok, I was just basing my statement on what was said. No different than having my views generalized, even though I am not really on the oposing side, just in the middle ground somewhere. i.e.
| Quote: | | If you want to go by the RAW, that's fine. You can have psychopathic killers in your group if you want. You can turn your game into a killing fest and law enforcement hunt as the game hunts for your player characters |
I do not believe non-force sensitives should only get them for using a force point evily, nor do I believe they should be used as a hammer and handed out for every disagreeable act.
| Quote: | | It's evident some of you guys play decidely darker, decidedly less moral, possibly even bad-guy oriented games. Not everyone else does though! And just because they don't doesn't mean they hold all characters to the same code as the Jedi. |
Again, was using the information presented for that comparison. I don't run bad-guy centered or dark games. I reserve DSP for non-force users for undeniably evil or heinous acts as a rule. In the case of lesser morally reprehensible acts I wait for there to be a repeating pattern that is leading my game into the darker side and award a DSP. Some seem to think I wait for the player to go on a killing spree of psycopathic rage, despite that I have tried to make it clear this is not the case, and give examples.
• Stealing, assault, vandalism - no DSP for non force sensitives initially. But if this becomes repetitive and is not being done out of nescessity, it will innevitably result in one or more.
• Killing/murder - Depends a great deal on context. Shooting up a school just because it's there - absolutely I would hand out a DSP. Killing a prisoner because of beliefs they will compromise the players or the players do not have a way to adequately detain him - usually no, but it may in extreme cases.
• Torture - Again depends a great deal on context (if to extract information and only as nescessary, no)
I also hold Jedi, Force Sensitive, and regular characters to entirely different standards.
• A Jedi will earn a DSP merely for being aware and present for the commission of an evil act and not attempting to stop it (not intervening to prevent putting prisoners to the sword, allowing torture for any reason, just as two examples) in addition to morally reprehensible acts he commits on his own (assault a bystander, killing for no reason, robbery, theft, etc...)
• A Force Sensitive I give somewhat more leeway than a Jedi, but they still have to be careful. If they are present and aware of someone comitting a morally reprehensible act they may earn a DSP depending on context (I feel a force-sensitive should attempt to talk others out of putting prisoners to the sword...they need not nescessarily succeed or intervene, but at least make effort). Aside from that, I may allow a force sensitive to use agressive interogation to extract information if there is no other way and lives are on the line. I may allow them to get away with petty larceny without a DSP depending on context (stealing imperial funds, etc...). If they commit an evil or morally reprehensible act, they will get DSP though (assaulting an innocent or bystander - which includes starting an nunescessary fight to justify it, theft of random persons or innocents, murder in any fashion or in many cases being a party to it even).
• For non-force sensitives I reserve DSPs for the most atrocious, heinous, and morally reprehensible acts. This is not to say they can get away with all the other stuff (for everything in any game or system I run there are always consequences). This is to say I do not feel that a non-force sensitive should get a DSP for the first offense of many of these other acts, but true eveil is true evil, and evil attracts evil. While I may not award a DSP to this character the first time he kills in cold blood (such as battlefield executions or revenge) I most likely will if it happens a second time, and definately will on the third regardless of what justification the player concocts (which is what I meant about patterns of behavior). If the first murder is particularly gruesome and obviously evil then that is enough to award one in my opinion. Things like Rape and torturing someone maliciously or to death will absolutely gain one simply because this is not the game I wish to run (I do not have such things as rape and child moletation occour in my Star Wars setting, even on the part of NPCs, I find it too dark for the world of Star Wars). A lot of it is context and case by case.
I hope that better explains what I have been trying to say, and my position.
| Quote: | I hate it when people seem to equate all Force Sensitive characters as Jedi. They're NOT! Jedi are Force Sensitive, yes, but not all Force Sensitive are Jedi. Nor are all Force Sensitive characters even interested in becoming a student of the Force.
There are three classifications: Non-Force Sensitive, Force Sensitive, Force Sensitive Force User/Jedi. |
I actually brought this up in my post and was trying to illustrate this is why I do not feel non-force sensitives should gain a DSP for every morally reprehensible act, unless truly and undeniably evil.
Breaking into someone's house, tying them and their child up, torturing them, and shooting one of them to rob them I would give a DSP to even a non-force sensitive. Obviously some aspect of the many examples I posted was missed and why you seem to think I find this conduct morally acceptable is lost on me (as I even call the conduct I might not award a DSP for morally reprehensible) - this is a far cry from the examples I gave of battlfield executions or killing a prisoner. This is also why I have said in several posts, it's really a lot about context and has to be handled case by case.
I realize everyone does run things differently. I have only continued to try to clarify how and why I hand them out as some have taken what I said out of context or misunderstood my meaning.
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"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra
Last edited by KageRyu on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaloth Varsk wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Picture this: a father comes home from his work as a propulsion engineer for Rendilli Stardrives. He finds his next door neighbor molesting his daughter. He chases the man off and sees to his daughter. Later that night, he takes his blaster from under his bed, walks over to his neigbor's house, breaks down the door, and shoots him fatally in the chest. That's premeditated murder of a defenseless man, but is that worth a DSP? |
ABSOLUTELY!!!
If that is the only evil act he commits, has he fallen to the darkside? No. However, whether he feels justified or not, he has committed an evil act that will have a lasting impact on his character, and that is what the DSP represents. |
Very true, though like that guy in Texas who beat the perve shagging his daughter to death, he would more than likely get off if it went to trial.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | like that guy in Texas who beat the perve shagging his daughter to death, he would more than likely get off if it went to trial. |
That's defense of a third party. Not only is it legal, I firmly hold that it is moral and even heroic. | Bren wrote: | | Grimace wrote: | | If you want to go by the RAW, that's fine. You can have psychopathic killers in your group if you want. You can turn your game into a killing fest and law enforcement hunt as the game hunts for your player characters. Some of us simply choose to use an aspect of the rules that already takes into account good and evil and give DSPs for those sorts of things. |
Grimace I don’t think anyone here has advocated running “psychopathic killers” or turning their game into “a killing fest” |
I run a pirate ship. The fact of the matter is that there are some psychopathic killers on board, and even the anti-hero captain has committed what could be considered murder "on screen". All the characters, player or not are judged by the same standard, and Cap'n M'Kard did not receive a DSP. Here's the thing, though. My player's characters have never committed murder.
You don't need DSP's to control players. Heck, if you're controlling the players, you're GMing wrong. A Dark Side Point is not just a "marker" of garden-variety evil. It is a catastrophic wound to the soul, caused by flagrant and flamboyant acts of evil.
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14341
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: |
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In that situation i feel DSP's ARE what is needed to reign in that type of group.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | In that situation i feel DSP's ARE what is needed to reign in that type of group. |
Which group, the PCs who don't commit murder or the NPCs who do?
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
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