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Star Wars Roleplaying Game Network
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Robert
Lieutenant Commander
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Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As i tried to say with bad publicity is publicity: In fact he advertised RancorPit as a place where you can share pdfs. Whether it was his intent to do so while protecting himself from a possible sue or ban or whether he really was angry doesn´t matter. More people will know of this site and most of them won´t be kept away from enjoying the game because of a possible, yet non-existing threat by LCL.
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boomer wrote:

The truth is, no, this does not actually violate a single d*mn written law. It just doesn't. We give them enough money as it is and they arn't really losing a single penny to us or because of us in any way, shape, or form.



From the U.S. Copyright Office, Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#p2p

Is it legal to download works from peer-to-peer networks and if not, what is the penalty for doing so?
Uploading or downloading works protected by copyright without the authority of the copyright owner is an infringement of the copyright owner's exclusive rights of reproduction and/or distribution. Anyone found to have infringed a copyrighted work may be liable for statutory damages up to $30,000 for each work infringed and, if willful infringement is proven by the copyright owner, that amount may be increased up to $150, 000 for each work infringed. In addition, an infringer of a work may also be liable for the attorney's fees incurred by the copyright owner to enforce his or her rights.

Then there is also:

What is copyright infringement?
As a general matter, copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.

Anyone wishing to learn more about this subject can visit http://www.copyright.gov/ and read all that they want to. That site says just about everything there is to say about copyright and what is and is not allowed by the law.
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Commander Cody
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Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 375
Location: Kamino

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's nice to continue this useless debate, Grimace while I completly understand copyright laws you missed the whole point, SHOW ME ONE POST AT THE STAR WARS ROLEPLAYING GAME NETWORK HOLONET FORMUS UNDER THE TITLE ATTACK OF THE CLONES GALAXY GUIDE THAT EVEN SUGGEST FILE SHARING IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, It was not brought up once, Moridin brought that into the post, because he couldnt stand to say something positive.


Thanks
Cody
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you are missing my point. I am not debating that what Moridin posted had nothing to do with the topic of Attack of the Clones sourcebook. What I am debating, or simply trying to educate, is the belief that what goes on here is perfectly benign and that there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. That is why I included the part of Boomer's post, so people would know what I'm talking about.

Moridin obviously has a beef against a site that allows file sharing of copyright material. That's his right. While his post on the thread had nothing to do with the topic of the thread, the message that it carried was not, in fact, wrong. Do I agree with it? No, otherwise I wouldn't be here. It is, however, Moridin's right to voice those opinions, as it is his site now. Was it the best place to voice those opinions at that particular time? No. But there's no way I'm going to moderate him and give him a warning for posting off topic on a board he owns. Rolling Eyes

I have said in the past, and on this very thread, what goes on here is against copyright law, and if you want to keep doing it, you have to keep low key about it, because it could result in this site being shut down. Heck, I partake in the sharing of the files as well, so I obviously don't have a beef with doing such a thing. I simply wanted to let people know that we are, in fact, violating copyright law by doing what we are doing, whether it's free or not, produced anymore or not. I was attempting to educate people on the matter, not make a "useless debate". I guess people weren't willing to listen. Confused
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Moridin
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Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commander Cody wrote:
First off I want to offically appologize for starting this debate in the first place. The legality of this issue wasnt really what I was angry about. Second I get tired of people like Moridin, who don't help the communiy, and I don't mean with stats and books, because we all know who he is, but with positive encouragement, but he didnt do that, he wrote that political load of crap which served absolutly no purpose. So for someone to make that post in a topic that has absolutly nothing to do with file sharing is absurd. What good did his post serve, what point did it make, because the topics title was Attack of the Clones Sourcebook and then to go a step further not one single post mentioned "hey man you download books at that site". Once again I am sorry for adding fuel to this fire, it was not intended.

Thanks
Cody


Well, I was going to leave this post alone, as I'm no stranger to people being upset on message boards. Then, I thought you all deserved to at least understand my rationale.

I'm going to ignore the fact that I'm being angrily insulted here and respond with civility. I don't support any website that allows for copyrighted materials to be traded freely without the author's and publishers consent. That does not mean that I am against that site in any way. If you have made peace with your activities, then more power to you; do not expect me to actively support it, however. I merely said that as a writer I find it distasteful that someone would trade my works so freely were I in there shoes. Eight years from now if I find a website with scanned copies of my books available for free download I'm going to be a bit disappointed and offended. That's all I said.

If you feel that I don't do anything for the community, then that is your prerogative. I can't change that opinion, though I can point to the free hosting I give to fan-made sourcebooks, the free publicity I provide to them, and the encouraging news posts I put up about them. The fact that this particular sourcebook is being hosted on a site I cannot endorse is an unfortunate coincidence, and is in no way a slight against the authors involved. Similarly, it is not a slight against Rancor Pit and its members, except to say I cannot endorse the site.

You see, I've felt the hot breath of the copyright monster on my neck a couple of times. We walk a very thin line every day at SWRPGNetwork. I've seen websites shut down, and received warnings myself to remove content or feel legal wrath. Whether or not you want to believe it is so, LucasFilm Ltd. still considers what we do to be infringement of Intellectual Property, and as such it is only by their good graces that we are allowed to continue to operate. As such, my choice to avoid any association with a site I would consider to be "high-risk" is merely my desire to continue to walk that very thin line, and not an antagonistic attack against the site or its members. If you felt slighted, then I offer my humblest apologies.

I still stand by my statement as the truth, though.

One more thing. If you have a problem with something I say or do, then say it to my face. I'm a big boy, I can handle it, I assure you. There's no need to retreat to another message board to level complaints about me, you can always feel free to e-mail me, or even contact me by other means (such as private messages, instant messages, etc.). Talking about me behind my virtual back is a good way to reduce my desire to be conciliatory, and pretty rude to boot.

EDIT: Yeah, one more thing I forgot to mention. I have no intentions or desire to "rat out" this site to the authorities. Someone suggested I hire a lawyer and sue (only to be counter-sued) but that would defeat the purpose. I don't want the site shut down, I don't want its members arrested or fined, and I don't want anything bad to happen to anyone involved. If you think so, then I'd suggest you are reading far more than, "Moridin doesn't like filesharing" into the post.
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Rodney "Moridin" Thompson
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Gry Sarth
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Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5308
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you showed up, Moridin. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I understand and respect your opinion, even if I don't share it. I can see why one would try to prevent a Lucasfilm lawsuit, but I also see that these WEG books are no longer available to the public, and thus I feel it's an honest aid to the roleplaying community to share them with everyone. Lucasfilms is no longer making any money with those books, nor is WEG, so they are not loosing any either. And as for the writers, I'd think they'd be happy to see their work reaching more and more people almost a decade after they went out of print. They are not losing any money, just gaining more recognition.

But, alas, you no longer have to distance yourself from this site, or say you don't condone our actions. Loc Taal, the site's admin, has banned WEG pdfs sharing, for fear of a lawsuit. And so that's that.
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Moridin
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Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believe me, I am well-versed in all the arguments. About 6 years ago, I would have even agreed with you. Since that time, a number of factors have altered my perception on the matter and given me my current opinion.

The reason I say that I would be upset with free filesharing of my works is not because I don't want to see my works spread; far from it. When you share files illegally, that work loses value. I'd like to think that years from now, when my books are out of print, people will be circulating money back into the economy by purchasing the books from someone else (whether that be an individual or a reseller). If my books retain value over the years, that means I've obviously written something that people like and are willing to pay for. This, to me, is a better evaluation of my work than how many people share the file on the internet.

Like I say, I'm not trying to halt the process here or anything -- just standing clear of it myself.
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Loc Taal
Grand Master (Admin Emeritus)


Joined: 17 Jun 2003
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Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Moridin, thanks for posting here to add your input. I can understand why you stated that you do not endorse a site that allows posting of copyright material. You were just covering your bases, perfectly understandable. No offense taken. Truth be told, I was never really comfortable with the idea of sharing PDFs of the books here on the forums. I had debated putting a stop to it many times, but never acted on it, mainly for the reasons that Gry posted. The bottom line is that it is still technically illegal, regardless of any personal feelings, and that is why I finally decided to end the practice here on the site.
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Allst Beamem
Lieutenant Commander
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Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd like to think that years from now, when my books are out of print, people will be circulating money back into the economy by purchasing the books from someone else (whether that be an individual or a reseller). If my books retain value over the years, that means I've obviously written something that people like and are willing to pay for. This, to me, is a better evaluation of my work than how many people share the file on the internet.


So, to get this straight Moridin. Since no one is losing or making money off of the pdf sharing you think this is wrong? And you would be ok with this consept if we were paying each other for our files?

I know this is all a moot point now that this resourse has been taken from us, and honestly this is at least partially your fault IMO.

Agin none of this matters any more since Loc had to take drastic preventitve measures.
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Moridin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allst Beamem wrote:
So, to get this straight Moridin. Since no one is losing or making money off of the pdf sharing you think this is wrong? And you would be ok with this consept if we were paying each other for our files?


No. I think illegally copying the work is wrong. I'd be OK with the concept if you were buying, selling, trading, or giving away physical copies of the book that had once been purchased legally.

Quote:
I know this is all a moot point now that this resourse has been taken from us, and honestly this is at least partially your fault IMO.


If you believe it's my fault the file sharing has been taken down, then I think you vastly overestimate my influence. If you think one guy saying, "I don't endorse this" is enough to change a website's policy, especially one he'd only visited a couple of times prior to today...well, then I don't know what to tell you. It was certainly not my intention, and I doubt VERY seriously that this is my fault. I've said I didn't like a lot of things in the past, and that doesn't carry a lot of influence with most people.

Quote:
Agin none of this matters any more since Loc had to take drastic preventitve measures.


If you have a problem with the policy change, I'd suggest you talk to him. I do not know what prompted the change.
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Moridin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loc Taal wrote:
Hi Moridin, thanks for posting here to add your input. I can understand why you stated that you do not endorse a site that allows posting of copyright material. You were just covering your bases, perfectly understandable. No offense taken.


Good, glad to know there's no hard feelings. I certainly don't harbor any, and never have. The Rancor Pit Forums do a great thing -- namely, promoting the Star Wars RPG -- and I'd hate for there to be any doubts as to my support of that.

I hope people will understand that when a link leaving my site goes to another site, it creates a connection between those two sites. Was it a CYA maneuver? Absolutely. There's nothing ill-willed about that, though. And, without the filesharing of copyrighted material, I CAN endorse the site, and do. I'll go on record right now as saying the supplements produced here (particularly the Galaxy Guides) are some of the best I've ever seen. The problem only arose out of what I considered questionable content, and was not malicious at all.
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Loc Taal
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
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Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Moridin. I agree with you that the fan-made material that's been posted here is top-notch and nothing short of spectacular.

Just one additional note:
It's nobody's fault that the PDF-sharing was removed. If anything, it's my fault for allowing it in the first place. My apologies to all involved for letting it go on for a while, and then suddenly removing it. As I said, I was never really comfortable with it, and debated removing it numerous times in the past. This is something that had been in the works for a while, it was not a knee-jerk reaction.
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Chabit Rane
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loc, I don't think you need to say anything about it. It was a good call you made in my opinion. But will we have a thread for fan made materials? It would be nice, but if not, no problem.
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masque
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Loc, when it comes right down to it, you weren't actually hosting any copyrighted material. All the hosting was done off site. You merely had links.

I'm not reproaching you, I respect your decision, I'm just pointing this out.
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Loc Taal
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
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Location: Wisconsin, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chabit Rane wrote:
But will we have a thread for fan made materials?

Yes, I hope people will continue to share their fan-made material. You guys have posted some really awesome stuff and I hope you continue to do so!
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