| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Esoomian wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Orks, mentioned to weigh twice the weight of a human only has Toughness 4 as an advantage from this bulk of muscle and bone. |
A lot of this sort of thing is a game balance type situation though. Orks are frequently mentioned as being strong enough to rip a human's arm off but yet they have the exact same strength as a human or even an eldar. |
Which is why space marines are superhuman even though their stats are just one point above human standard.
| Quote: |
In 40K a space marine's puch is almost exactly as powerful as his bolder (and is exactly as powerful if you don't include amour penetration as a factor) that makes no sense, the bolter it a miniture rocket launcher and yet the marines fist is just as good?. |
Models are assumed to have some kind of basic hand weapon when fighting at basic strength. We see the WFRP inherit this in their 'hand weapons' which have no modification to the attack damage.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Models are assumed to have some kind of basic hand weapon when fighting at basic strength. We see the WFRP inherit this in their 'hand weapons' which have no modification to the attack damage. |
WFRP? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Warhammer Fantasy Role Play.
Models used to be assumed to have a hand weapon, in the new edition I believe models that require weapons (IE those without inbuilt weapons like genestealers and their ilk) are assumed to be using whatever they have so a Space Marine will be using the gun but of his bolter.
This is fine in a 40K type situation but when we get down to the detail of a RPG I find it hard to comprehend a Space Marine being exactly as effective using his gun as a club as he is shooting it.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Esoomian wrote: | Warhammer Fantasy Role Play.
Models used to be assumed to have a hand weapon, in the new edition I believe models that require weapons (IE those without inbuilt weapons like genestealers and their ilk) are assumed to be using whatever they have so a Space Marine will be using the gun but of his bolter.
This is fine in a 40K type situation but when we get down to the detail of a RPG I find it hard to comprehend a Space Marine being exactly as effective using his gun as a club as he is shooting it. |
I remember that rule. Part of every Space Marine's starting equipment was a "combat accessory" of some kind. In the fiction, that accessory usually ends up being a broad-bladed knife the size of a small sword. With a Marine's strength and skill behind them, I can imagine something like that inflicting massive damage with a single strike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Esoomian wrote: | Warhammer Fantasy Role Play.
Models used to be assumed to have a hand weapon, in the new edition I believe models that require weapons (IE those without inbuilt weapons like genestealers and their ilk) are assumed to be using whatever they have so a Space Marine will be using the gun but of his bolter.
This is fine in a 40K type situation but when we get down to the detail of a RPG I find it hard to comprehend a Space Marine being exactly as effective using his gun as a club as he is shooting it. |
Given the fact that the WH 40K game mechanics are more abstract than a RPG I wouldnt get hung up on that fact. Also, look at SW D6 RPG, hand weapons in the hand of an 'ordinary' strong human do more damage than a heavy blaster. Obi-Wan Doe can punch out the same damage as an ordinary blaster pistol.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Given the fact that the WH 40K game mechanics are more abstract than a RPG I wouldnt get hung up on that fact. Also, look at SW D6 RPG, hand weapons in the hand of an 'ordinary' strong human do more damage than a heavy blaster. Obi-Wan Doe can punch out the same damage as an ordinary blaster pistol. |
Well, given the fact that normal human attributes run at the 2D range, we should all keep in mind that a human characters with 3D to 4D stats are prodigies on a planetary scale. A human with 4D strength here on Earth would probably be a world-class athlete, among the best ever, with amazing natural talent. If you put a melee weapon in the hands of such a person, they're going to do serious damage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Given the fact that the WH 40K game mechanics are more abstract than a RPG I wouldnt get hung up on that fact. Also, look at SW D6 RPG, hand weapons in the hand of an 'ordinary' strong human do more damage than a heavy blaster. Obi-Wan Doe can punch out the same damage as an ordinary blaster pistol. |
Well, given the fact that normal human attributes run at the 2D range, we should all keep in mind that a human characters with 3D to 4D stats are prodigies on a planetary scale. A human with 4D strength here on Earth would probably be a world-class athlete, among the best ever, with amazing natural talent. If you put a melee weapon in the hands of such a person, they're going to do serious damage. |
But still not more than a .44 Magnum or an Assault Rifle (Which would be the equivalent of 5D damage).
Its beside the point. What I wanted to illustrate was that a tabletop game will have a more abstract combat system heavily influenced by game balance and 'net effect'. As Im also both an WFB and WFRP fan I have had the same discussion countless of times, and in that case the systems actually are based on the same stats. An Ogre with low Weapon Skill (WS) and 3 Attacks with just over average Strength makes sense in WFB as the net effect is that they are dangerous. In WFRP its a bit silly to have a slow Ogre with little chance of hitting but that for some reason can make 3 attacks in a round (as a very elite fighter type character like a Templar/Knight (In WFRP you often start as Sewerjack or Rat Catcher and work from there). In an RPG the 'net effect' is not what you are after but a 'realistic' representation of the fighting ability of the creature at hand.
Edit: Btw, for those familiar with WFRP. Im an old WFRP grognard and plays a 1st/2nd ed hybrid. I know the 3rd ed is completely different when it comes to characters roles in the world.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | Well, given the fact that normal human attributes run at the 2D range, we should all keep in mind that a human characters with 3D to 4D stats are prodigies on a planetary scale. A human with 4D strength here on Earth would probably be a world-class athlete, among the best ever, with amazing natural talent. |
A bit OT but I wanted to put my 2 cents in here.
I think the 2D 'average' human is very much an 80s idea that has survived into the 90s. There was a tradition, inherited from mostly D&D, that the average Joe should be vastly inferior also in starting stats (In this case racial minimum). If you look at the early adventures this can also be seen in inferior NPCs, some nasty special NPCs aside. Even more beside the point, in my games average humans have 15D in their abilites.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | Another factor is that WH40K stats are most definitely not a direct crossover. You have multiple WH40K stats that would play into factors in one SW D6 stat, and vice versa. Just because a SM in WH40K has a Strength of 4, that doesn't necessarily mean that it translates directly across, as the T and BS stats also come under the Aegis of the Strength stat in SW.
Ultimately, you're stuck with winging it and guessing, and hopefully not having too many people disagree with you. IMO, if you are designing a supra-human soldier that is supposed to be stronger, tougher and faster than the human norm, just give the stat an extra 1D in the appropriate places, then throw in a few special abilities, like the acid spitting, maybe even natural body armor or whatever. |
BS (Ballistic Skill) for STR? Id say the 40K S, T and W stats make up the SW STR stats.
Of course you can not make a direct translation. Luckily Im familiar with both systems and the WFB-WFRP translation and you can combine translation with estimating to get as close as possible. Also, as this is no competetive board game you dont have to stick to the RAW or get opponents consent.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes BS and WS are a little problematic as they both fall under dexterity + either melee or blaster/firearms but sometimes they'll be quite different. Orks for instance have WS 4 but BS 2
I had that problem with my conversions.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
schnarre
Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | I've been leaning in the direction of using the Warhammer 40K material to populate Unknown Space. With the hyperspace anomalies making exploration and travel in the Unknown Regions so difficult, it would fit quite nicely with the development of the Navigators. I've considered a few changes to make it fit:
1). The Imperial Military (Ground and Space Forces) are now the Demiurg (Dwarves), as the stylized look of most Imperial Navy vessels would fit with the artistic tendencies one would tend to ascribe to dwarven artisans. The Demiurg would be highly conservative, and would retain much of the organization of the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Terra, especially the Adeptus Mechanicus.
2). Split the Tau Merchant Fleet from the Tau Military Fleet and make the Merchant Fleet vessels the Chiss Navy.
3). The Nicassar Tau sub-race would be the Halflings / Ratlings
4). Chaos are now the Sith Empire of the Unknown Regions. The daemons would be the result of Sith Alchemy experimentation.
5). The Eldar are unchanged, but the back story of the catastrophe that leveled their homeworlds would need to be changed. Perhaps have the remains of their homeworld be the location of the Sith Empire, because the apocalypse left their worlds shrouded in the Dark Side
6). Necrons would be unchanged, but their harvesting activities are for entechment (which the Ssi-Ruuk scavenged from a Necron wreck) to power their droid forms
7). Demiurg ships would be a new race, with an almost mystical relationship with technology, able to make technology to perform near magical feats. I was thinking some cross with Gnomes and Jokaero, making these creatures more willing to interact with other species, and make them more like monkeys instead of orangutans.
8). Orks and Tyranids would be left unchanged, but reduced in scope, so that they are more of a local problem than a galaxy-wide threat.
9). The Webway would be altered to something more along the lines of the Stargate Gate Network, rather than accessing an alternate dimension (It would simplify things), and the Eldar and Necrons would use jump technology (transitioning instantly from one point to another) while the other races would use hyperdrives, except for the Tyranids, who never bother with it in the first place.
10). Ogryns and Beastmen would exist as primitive races and recruited as shock troops for the Demiurg and the Sith, respectively.
11). The Rakata and the Celestials could fit nicely with the backstory of several of the older races, like the Orks and the Necrons, as subject races begun as warrior fodder. The Eldar origins could be linked to the Celestials, as a countering warrior species to combat the Rakata's subject races.
12). Space Marines would be split off to form an elite experimental unit under the Empire, drawn from the stormtrooper corps and upgraded with bioware implants and power armor to create a cutting-edge unit of shock troops.
Thoughts? |
...Some good work put into this! Have you tried it out as yet? 8)
_________________
The man who thinks he knows everything is most annoying for those of us that do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
schnarre
Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | Yeah, its more part of Tyranid forces (especially on space hulks and where they might encounter sentient beings) than the infiltrating Gene Stealers (which work with another timeframe). Actually there is (was) a similar elusive creature called the Cortex Leech. However I rather liked the idea of a black crawling carpet of half meter centipedes swarming their targets and attaching to the spine to dominate their subjects. Nids could be the 'horror' of SW these days as Sith has been done to death..  |
Very true. Although a large portion of that could be laid at the feet of whoever is writing the story lines for Dark Horse comics, as they always seem to order their ancient Jedi vs. Sith story plots with extra, extra cheese.
Personally, I think combining Chaos with Sith in this crossover would really rejuvenate things. Imagine Star Wars Sith Lords based in the SW equivalent of the Eye of Terror, with thousands of years to distill and ferment and become truly truly nasty and evil, like the Chaos Warmasters.
Tyranids would definitely be an excellent villain, with the Genestealers and Lictors providing the early intrigue, then the full swarm hitting hard later. Necrons are also very creepy in their own right. I always thought the Ssi-Ruuk were silly, but the concept of entechment dovetails quite nicely with the Necron harvesting raids.
Lots of possibilities here  |
...A LOAD of possibilities indeed!!! I might try something like this myself one of these days (gotta get my 40K books back though, lol)
_________________
The man who thinks he knows everything is most annoying for those of us that do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Esoomian wrote: | Yes BS and WS are a little problematic as they both fall under dexterity + either melee or blaster/firearms but sometimes they'll be quite different. Orks for instance have WS 4 but BS 2
I had that problem with my conversions. |
Dont you fix that with skills? Remember that WFB/40K/WFRP mixes up skill and racial abilities in the statline. If GW thinks that orks are always good fighters, but average shooters then the conversion should mean avearge Dex but with a skill bonus to melee/brawling. Much like Gamorreans, SW:s 'Orks' (Not to mention the Gamorks )
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | Personally, I think combining Chaos with Sith in this crossover would really rejuvenate things. Imagine Star Wars Sith Lords based in the SW equivalent of the Eye of Terror, with thousands of years to distill and ferment and become truly truly nasty and evil, like the Chaos Warmasters.
Tyranids would definitely be an excellent villain, with the Genestealers and Lictors providing the early intrigue, then the full swarm hitting hard later. Necrons are also very creepy in their own right. I always thought the Ssi-Ruuk were silly, but the concept of entechment dovetails quite nicely with the Necron harvesting raids.
Lots of possibilities here |
Ok, lets see. Im focusing on Chaos here. In my games so far I have left the Tau and the Necrons out (though some parts the Necron idea might be used if not for a whole species). The Squats and Eldars already have their place in my games. Orks have been recently discussed in another thread, resulting in the Gamorks. Dont know if that will see the light of day, but it was a good concept. The Imperium is a backward area of space much like the Tion Hegemony but even more isolated and backward. They do have a worshipped Emperor though.
Ok, so we have a some distant place where space is distorted, probably by surrounding black holes. Here an isolated Sith Empire has developed over millenia. Some traditions have twisted even further for being Sith. Probably they have forgotten their Sith heritage and a new belief system has been established.
Daemons: Large creatures altered by sith alchemy and possessed by Sith spirits? Imortality in a twisted way.
Sith Lords also heavily twisted by Alchemy to booster abilities (instead of mutations).
How would the Emperor (SW) react to this if he knew? He would probably see a threat to his reign and try to kill anyone coming out of there.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| schnarre wrote: | | ...Some good work put into this! Have you tried it out as yet? 8) |
Sadly, no. As of right now, I don't have a group to game with, and real life is spectacularly busy. This is more of a nascent idea that I've put some thought into, but not much effort beyond a summary. I have a huge supply of WH40K material to use as resources, including the rules for WH40K Epic and Battlefleet Gothic, but again, I haven't put a lot of effort into putting pen to paper (ideas are a different story). If you'd like to quiz me on ideas, I'm more than willing to discuss them in detail.
Additional Thoughts:
The Black Library, guarded by the Eldar Harlequins, is now a repository of all the knowledge of the Celestials before they died off. It exists in a pocket universe connected to the webway, and is reachable only by a complex method known only to the Great Harlequins and the Solitaires.
Another pocket universe is the Dark Eldar city of Commorragh. Additionally, the Dark Eldar are cut off from the Force (in WH40K, the Dark Eldar have no psykers), most likely as a result of whatever catastrophe brought down the Eldar race in this scenario. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
