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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: "Normals" vs. Jedi... a comparison |
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Just trying to put some numbers to determine which is potentially more powerful given equivalent CP expenditure. Force Users or Non-Force Users?
Assumptions:
"Average" Starting PC = 3D base attribute, 4D in the starting skill (1D above base) Yes, 2D is max, but I'm assuming average.
"Average" Starting Jedi = 1D in all three Force Skills. More often than not, the Jedi will be without a teacher, but I'll show best case improvement, as well.
Advancement:
To go from starting skill to say, 6D costs 27 CPs (4+4+4+5+5+5), and takes 6 adventures. To increase that to 8D is another 39 CPs and another 6 adventures. (66 CPs total)
To increase a single, starting Force Skill to 4D costs 36 CPs and takes 9 adventures (18 CPs with a teacher). To increase that to 6D is another 54 CPs and another 6 adventures (27 CPs with a teacher). (90 CPs total, 45 CPs total w/ a teacher)
Game Effects:
If the non-Jedi is advancing their Blaster skill, 8D is pretty darn good with a Blaster shot, but nothing else. If the Jedi is advancing their Control skill, they can potentially do things like Concentration, Hibernation Trance, Accelerate Heal, Contort/Escape, Control Disease, Absorb/Dissipate Energy along with other Control Force powers.
I say potentially because if they haven't learned the Force Power, they can't use it (barring any GM house rules on spontaneous use of powers.)
Analysis:
Given a sporadic Jedi teacher, the Jedi and non-Jedi have spent about the same number of CPs (~66 CPs). The Jedi has taken longer to get there (15 adventures vs. 12 adventures). The non-Jedi has more dice (8D vs 6D). However, the Jedi potentially has more versatility.
Conclusion:
The non-Jedi seems to have the edge in speed and number of dice, but the Jedi has more versatility. For the non-Jedi the versatility could depend on which skill is being improved. (Con more versatile than Blaster?) Likewise, the non-Jedi could forego a few dice in the single skill to get "equivalent" abilities. 6D Dodge (27 CPs) could be just as good (if not, better) than Absorbing a Blaster shot, and 6D First Aid (27 CPs) could approximate many of the healing Control abilities. (And those two skills only cost 54 CPs).
Thoughts?
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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That is precisely my argument.
My point also: the non-Jedi and the Jedi will need the same skills not used in personal combat. Example they will both need climbing/jumping, search, starship repair, etc.
The Jedi needs to spend points on Lightsaber, Control, Sense, and Alter for combat purposes (and dodge wouldn't hurt)
The non-Jedi needs blaster, dodge, and maybe some brawling and melee.
Which character is spending more CPs?
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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But that jedi can use things like enhance attribute, concentration and such to increase their lower score to beyond what the non force user has.
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | Which character is spending more CPs? |
Looks like I have some more calculations to make... cuz I honestly don't know.
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But that jedi can use things like enhance attribute, concentration and such to increase their lower score to beyond what the non force user has. |
For a short period of time.
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Please note I have not said that Jedi are "better" or "worse" merely that they appear to be more versatile. (So far) Further analysis pending when we consider improvements to the Sense & Alter Skills and what a non-Jedi could do with an equivalent # of CPs.
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Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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cunning_kindred
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, before I start.. let me say that I would never do this and have never seen anyone do it. Its just an example of a worse case scenario. It does however, highlight, the inevitable spread in the gulf between the Force Sensitive and non-Force Sensitive as the number of character points everybody has access to goes up.
The easiest comparison is the character that puts his character points into Lightsaber skill and the one that puts his points into control and sense. Let's give them both Dex 3D and start them both with no skill and 101 character points (it makes the math easier). Now, I could say, let's make the Jedi train without a teacher but just to make things clear, let's not for a second. I'm a nice GM and my Jedi's player has been such a good boy so I decide he finds his own Yoda.
4D (9), 5D (12), 6D (15), 7D [18], 8D (21), 9D (24)
At 99 character points spent the Lightsaber character has 9D skill
28 points into control---> 1D (10), 2D (3), 3D (6), 4D (9)
73 points into sense 1D (10), 2D (3), 3D (6), 4D (9), 5D (12), 6D (15), 7D [18]
At 101 character points spent the Jedi has Control 4D and Sense 7D.
The first character has 9D in his skill to hit and parry.
The second now puts up Lightsaber Combat. He needs moderate on 4D (average: 14) and easy on 7D (average: 24). He succeeds and now has 8D to hit and parry (including the penalty for having the power up). He wants to put up combat sense too. He needs a 15 on 5D (average: 17.5). Now he has 10D to hit and parry. Remember, this character has not even purchased the Lightsaber skill. If he wants another 1D and decides to waste points on a mundane skill he can have an additional 1D for only 9 character points. It would cost the non-Jedi 27.
And he has accelerate healing and concentrate, he also has danger sense (which gives him a round to put all that up and still have a good chance to do so), receptive telepathy, life sense and farseeing.
Of course, the real problem is that a non-Jedi is far more likely to be buying Melee Combat and Melee Parry and will therefore have less dice than his 9D lightsaber friend: not quite 7D in each.
As for the not having the powers up for long - what difference does that make if all your opponents are dead. With danger sense the Jedi doesn't even have to sacrifice the time it take to put up the powers. A character point would get him through any unfortunately low rolls and make sure he was a killing machine for the minute necessary to dispatch the unfortunate sword wielding mortal. |
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | 4D (9), 5D (12), 6D (15), 7D [18], 8D (21), 9D (24)
At 99 character points spent the Lightsaber character has 9D skill
28 points into control---> 1D (10), 2D (3), 3D (6), 4D (9)
73 points into sense 1D (10), 2D (3), 3D (6), 4D (9), 5D (12), 6D (15), 7D [18]
At 101 character points spent the Jedi has Control 4D and Sense 7D.
The first character has 9D in his skill to hit and parry.
The second now puts up Lightsaber Combat. He needs moderate on 4D (average: 14) and easy on 7D (average: 24). |
See, you've already failed to use the rules correctly. If he's activating LS Combat in one round, that's two actions. One to activate Control (3D). One to activate Sense (6D). due to the -1D MAP. Which affects your calculations below...
| cunning_kindred wrote: | | He succeeds and now has 8D to hit and parry (including the penalty for having the power up). He wants to put up combat sense too. He needs a 15 on 5D (average: 17.5). Now he has 10D to hit and parry. Remember, this character has not even purchased the Lightsaber skill. If he wants another 1D and decides to waste points on a mundane skill he can have an additional 1D for only 9 character points. It would cost the non-Jedi 27. |
With just LS Combat up, and he wants to hit and parry in the same round... that's a -3D MAP. (LS Combat = 2 actions, Attack = 1 action, Lightsaber Parry = 1 action)
So he has 8D to attack/parry (4D Lightsaber + 7D Sense -3D MAP) and 9D damage (Standard lightsaber is 5D+4D Control = 9D.)
By adding Combat Sense, you gain an extra +2 to hit and parry, but have to make the Moderate roll to activate with 4D. (Combat Sense doesn't count as an action for purposes of MAPs.)
Your "fully charged" Jedi is 8D+2 to attack/parry and 9D to damage.
| cunning_kindred wrote: | And he has accelerate healing and concentrate, he also has danger sense (which gives him a round to put all that up and still have a good chance to do so), receptive telepathy, life sense and farseeing.
Of course, the real problem is that a non-Jedi is far more likely to be buying Melee Combat and Melee Parry and will therefore have less dice than his 9D lightsaber friend: not quite 7D in each.
As for the not having the powers up for long - what difference does that make if all your opponents are dead. With danger sense the Jedi doesn't even have to sacrifice the time it take to put up the powers. A character point would get him through any unfortunately low rolls and make sure he was a killing machine for the minute necessary to dispatch the unfortunate sword wielding mortal. |
First of all, most characters use Blasters as their standard weapon, not melee weapons. Second, no PC in their right mind would attack a Jedi with a melee weapon. Third, with 101 character points you could easily get enough skill dice in Blaster, Dodge, Search, First Aid, Sensors to emulate some (not all) of the Force powers listed above. And as far as damage goes, a standard light repeating blaster does 6D damage. And any self-respecting Bounty Hunter with 101 CPs has paid to get it boosted by a Blaster Tech to the max +1D+2 above normal... to 7D+2.
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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cunning_kindred
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. First, I'll pretend that the tone was slightly less hostile. Either I'm becoming highly paranoid or you seem to be offended by my post though I can't for the life of me work out why.
| Quote: | | See, you've already failed to use the rules correctly. If he's activating LS Combat in one round, that's two actions. One to activate Control (3D). One to activate Sense (6D). due to the -1D MAP. Which affects your calculations below... |
I never said he was activating it in one round. I did the calculation at base on the assumption that people would take that in to consideration when I pointed out that it could be done in a round with a character point to help him through.
You will notice that I included the penalty when it came to put up combat sense.
| Quote: | | By adding Combat Sense, you gain an extra +2 to hit and parry, but have to make the roll to activate (4D), with the above MAPs. (Combat Sense doesn't count as an action for purposes of MAPs.) |
Firstly, its still 5D (I'm just maintaining the lightsaber combat this round and will parry my swordsmen if the situation comes up with a reaction - that's a -2D penalty).
As for the bonus: This is curious. I've always played with the rules that say combat sense adds +2D to the hit and parry. I just got out of my chair and checked my copy of Dark Force Rising and that's what it says in there but Gry Sarth's beautiful collection of all Force goodies agrees with you. Its possible that there was some kind of update that my group never received (after all these years - how strange) but as I have an actual book in front of me that WEG printed...
| Quote: | | First of all, most characters use Blasters as their standard weapon, not melee weapons. Second, no PC in their right mind would attack a Jedi with a melee weapon. Third, with 101 character points you could easily get enough skill dice in Blaster, Dodge, Search, First Aid, Sensors to emulate some (not all) of the Force powers listed above. And as far as damage goes, a standard light repeating blaster does 6D damage. And any self-respecting Bounty Hunter with 101 CPs has paid to get it boosted by a Blaster Tech to the max +1D+2 above normal... to 7D+2. |
Which is all beside the point because I said this was for comparison purposes only. If I want to play a melee weapon's character and the Jedi character just beat me completely without putting so much as a character point in the appropriate skill I think I have a right to be a little bit concerned about the balance issues.
And again, I was only pointing out a rather extreme example of how Jedi and non-Jedi can drift further and further apart as they accrue character points. |
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience, Jedi nearly always activate LS Combat in the same round.
| cunning_kindred wrote: | | And he has accelerate healing and concentrate, he also has danger sense (which gives him a round to put all that up and still have a good chance to do so), receptive telepathy, life sense and farseeing. |
You used the Danger Sense example and that is normally a "drop Danger Sense, activate LS Combat" and oh yeah, a parry to block that incoming attack.
Jedi aren't overpowered, you just need to correctly calculate your MAPs.
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Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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cunning_kindred
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Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Just trying to put some numbers to determine which is potentially more powerful given equivalent CP expenditure. Force Users or Non-Force Users? |
That looked like a question. Strange. You already seem to know the answer.
| Quote: | | Jedi aren't overpowered, you just need to correctly calculate your MAPs. |
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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | | Quote: | | Just trying to put some numbers to determine which is potentially more powerful given equivalent CP expenditure. Force Users or Non-Force Users? |
That looked like a question. Strange. You already seem to know the answer. |
Oh, I had a hypothesis, to be sure. But I figured I'd take a step back, take an unbiased approach and just look at it from a purely mathematical analysis perspective. What has me annoyed is when people don't state their assumptions explicitly... after all, you know what happens when you assume? 
Anyway, back on track... a Jedi vs. a melee fighter isn't even funny to watch. Even without LS Combat, after the Jedi cuts the melee weapon in half the first time he parries it, yeah, the fight's pretty much over.
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | As for the bonus: This is curious. I've always played with the rules that say combat sense adds +2D to the hit and parry. I just got out of my chair and checked my copy of Dark Force Rising and that's what it says in there but Gry Sarth's beautiful collection of all Force goodies agrees with you. Its possible that there was some kind of update that my group never received (after all these years - how strange) but as I have an actual book in front of me that WEG printed...
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I just verified this as well. Both the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook and the Tales of the Jedi Companion confirm it is +2D to attack and defend. (but only against the individuals targeted by the Combat Sense power.)
From the description I read in the Thrawn Trilogy Book, the quote talks about Luke getting tunnel vision. I'd almost say that's a penalty to attack/defend against opponents not targeted by the power.
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Gry's collection has a typo, it's that simple  The bonus for Combat Sense is +2D.
| Rerun941 wrote: | | In my experience, Jedi nearly always activate LS Combat in the same round. |
This is also my experience... well, once they get beyond the point where it's a chore to activate it even one power at a time.
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Rerun941
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Here's a spreadsheet I worked up...
Jedi vs Melee
I'll add some commentary tomorrow when I'm not half-asleep 
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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