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atgxtg
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 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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But guy, the way it works now just doeswn't match with the films.
Since Lightsaber Combat generally doubles the Jedi's ability to wield a lightsaber, the difference is ability between lightsaber and other skills (non one which can be boosted to anywhere near the level of lightsaber), leave us with JEdi who are fantastically great with lightsabers, but can't do much else with the power up.
All claims to the contrary have invoked "rules" that do not exist.
One of the reasons why Jedi cause so many problems in play is because lightsaber combat gives them a combat score that is rarely going to be challenged. Once you hit a certain point (7D+, "best in the...") serious foes are going to get somewhat rarer. Or else you end up with massive escalation just to keep things challenging. The double CP cost, doesn't slow down the rasing of Force skills that much. At least not if you are going bty the CP awards in the book. |
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MA-3PO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO, I think this solution posted by Grimace in another thread sounds like it could solve these problems. I haven't playtested it yet but I'm adopting it for the SWD6 Legend variant I'm working on:
| Grimace wrote: | For example, since people like to use the prequels as their new benchmark to what Jedi should be able to do, is change it so that you basically only use the Control, Sense and Alter to affect things when you're "powered up". And "powering up" can be activated at any time as the cost of 1 action.
Then, I'd allocate one of the Force abilities (Control, Sense or Alter) to any particular power. Roll that ability (plus any MAPs for being "powered up" and doing other things) and if you get the bonus.
So let's take Lightsaber use. First off, there's already a skill for it. So I'd change Lightsaber Combat to be something different....like Lightsaber Control. This grants the Jedi the ability to control the lightsaber to a greater degree than what his SKILL allows him. I wouldn't put an "activation" difficulty to get it to work, I just say the bonus applies. The Force ability attached to the Lightsaber Control is, of course, Control. If the character has 1D in Control, then they're going to not really get much benefit of "powering up" (1 action) and then making an attack (a second action, resulting in a -1D MAP) just to get the benefit of 1D in Control. But if you've got 3D in Control, it could work like this.
Character "powers up" (1 action) and declares a parry (1 action). He has the lightsaber skill of 4D and a Control of 3D. Now with the Lightsaber Control, he can use the dice to do the following: augment his skill, change the damage, control where deflected blaster shots go. Since the character only wants to parry, he's going to put all three of his Control dice into augmenting his skill. So he'd have a total of 7D to roll -1D for the MAP (2 actions).
Next turn the character, who is keeping himself "powered up" (1 action) decides to do an attack and parry (2 more actions). That will result in -2D MAP. Still though, he gets to allocate what he wants those 3D in Control to do. He decides he wants to put 1D into more damage (in case he hits the guy), and use the other dice to augment his skill. So this time he would normally roll the lightsaber skill of 4D + 2D for Control to determine if he hits and if he parries. If he's lucky (or good) enough to hit, he'd roll the damage +1D for his Control of the damage.
Translate that into another Force power, we could say Danger Sense is attached to the Force ability of Sense. Let's say the difficulty to get this power going is Moderate. Once it's working, the Jedi can potentially detect any hostile act a moment before it's done, giving him the ability to take a response action to it. Let's say the character has 2D in Sense. Since he's "powered up", that takes 1 action. If he's only activating the power and doing nothing else, he just rolls normally. Roll 2D and if he gets the Moderate difficulty number, he's got Danger Sense up and running. Then, the Danger Sense becomes part of his "powered up". It just works. The Jedi toodles along and someone in the shadows readies themself to jump out on the unsuspecting Jedi. The Jedi gets a Perception roll + 2D in Sense (because his Danger Sense is up) to notice the attacker right before he strikes. If he gets the attacker's "hide" number, he detects the threat. If he doesn't, then the Jedi might just get an uneasy feeling but not really sense the danger until it's too late. If the Jedi detects the threat, he can then take action. Activate Lightsaber and "parry" the attacker. Since the Force is already "powered up", he doesn't need to do that again, he's already taking the 1 action for it. Activating lightsaber is another action, and parry is a 3rd action. -2D MAP.
Now that attacker is in for a surprise. He's going to jump on an "unsuspecting" guy and club him. The Jedi detects the attack, turns on the lightsaber (get's to add his Control to augment his skill for the parry if he so desires) and swings his saber, slicing the attackers club in half just as the attacker begins to move. Stunned, the attacker flees in terror as his life flashes before his eyes.
Is that a bit more in line with what you were thinking? Plug in higher numbers for the Jedi and see how things work? Higher Control lets the Jedi augment skill AND take more attacks/parries. Or allows the Jedi to melt through blast doors. Higher Sense makes Danger Sense that much more effective and gives advanced Jedi an edge in detecting things a moment before they happen. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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MA-3P0,
Interesting, but I don't see how it solves the sequencing problem. Using the example you gave, the Jedi will need to take time to draw his lightsaber and raise lightsaber combat. Until he completes those actions, he cannot parry a blaster bolt with a lighsaber.
Frankly, by the book, the scenes where a Jedi uses the force to retrieve a lightsaber and then go into battle tend to be problematic. By the time the Jedi retrieves the weapon, activates it (a freebie), and raises lightsaber combat (2 more actions) he's probably been shot.
Danger Sense solves many of the problems, not by giving the Jedi any precognitive power, but by forcing the opposition to stand around and do nothing because they didn't declare it last turn. Instead of giving the Jedi warning, the power cripples the other side. Heck, if Darth Vader had used it, Solo never would have gotten a shot off.
Basically, anytime a character needs to "react" in 2nd edition, the Force isn't much help. By the time the PC can raise the power, it's too late. Characters don't Sense danger, unless they have already decided to raise the Danger Sense power.
I think that it should be more instinctive. Someone with, say 10D in Sense probably should be more alert and aware of his surrounding naturally.
That is one of the things that d20 SAGA seems to do better than d6. Some Force abilities just work, or can be used to react to things rather than requiring an action. aIN d6 everything is an action and takes time out of the sequencing.
I don't think something like Affect Mind should take 3 actions to pull off. In the films it is as fast or faster than using Telekensis to retrieve a lightsaber. |
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MA-3PO
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | MA-3P0,
Interesting, but I don't see how it solves the sequencing problem. Using the example you gave, the Jedi will need to take time to draw his lightsaber and raise lightsaber combat. Until he completes those actions, he cannot parry a blaster bolt with a lighsaber.
Frankly, by the book, the scenes where a Jedi uses the force to retrieve a lightsaber and then go into battle tend to be problematic. By the time the Jedi retrieves the weapon, activates it (a freebie), and raises lightsaber combat (2 more actions) he's probably been shot.
Danger Sense solves many of the problems, not by giving the Jedi any precognitive power, but by forcing the opposition to stand around and do nothing because they didn't declare it last turn. Instead of giving the Jedi warning, the power cripples the other side. Heck, if Darth Vader had used it, Solo never would have gotten a shot off.
Basically, anytime a character needs to "react" in 2nd edition, the Force isn't much help. By the time the PC can raise the power, it's too late. Characters don't Sense danger, unless they have already decided to raise the Danger Sense power.
I think that it should be more instinctive. Someone with, say 10D in Sense probably should be more alert and aware of his surrounding naturally.
That is one of the things that d20 SAGA seems to do better than d6. Some Force abilities just work, or can be used to react to things rather than requiring an action. aIN d6 everything is an action and takes time out of the sequencing.
I don't think something like Affect Mind should take 3 actions to pull off. In the films it is as fast or faster than using Telekensis to retrieve a lightsaber. |
There should be a simple way to create "reactive" uses of Force powers much the same way we have "reactive" dodges and parries in RAW. I will think on this.
One of the goals of my D6 Legend variant is to speed up play and one way I plan to do this is reduce die rolls. Like Grimace said in his example I posted earlier, I would trim down all Force powers to one die roll. Maybe you still have to have prereqs from other Force skills and powers. I don't have Affect Mind in front of me right now but I would probably reduce it to an Alter roll.
Another option I'm considering is to combine use of Force powers with "normal" skills. For Affect Mind maybe a successful Alter roll will allow you to combine your Alter dice with your Persuasion dice, Con dice or whatever you are trying roll in the situation.
I'm just thinking out loud here...  |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: |
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For all those who have issues with RAW and reconciling how it doesn't match up exactly with film sequences, well, never underestimate the power of plot. As with any RPG, WEG Star Wars rules are guidelines, not hard and fast concepts to be rigidly adhered to, and if a sequence cannot be reconciled the way you want by the expressly stated rules your SOL.
The Force (and other) rules are far from perfect, and certainly don't cover everything we see in the OT... but remember, plot trumps petty rules in certain circumstances. If it furthers the story that Obi-Wan could (in this instance) draw, sense and deflect a blaster shot and sever an arm all in one millisecond fluid motion, but it can't be reconciled by the RAW; toss RAW to the window and advance your story. Pick RAW back up again when you've crossed your hurtle and life goes on, all the better for the momentary lapse.
This is one of those "GM judgement" deals. It's not something that should be done frequently... but it does not hurt for things to happen in a game that the rules won't expressly allow.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| MA-3PO wrote: |
There should be a simple way to create "reactive" uses of Force powers much the same way we have "reactive" dodges and parries in RAW. I will think on this. |
There is. First Edition SW didn't lock down things so much, and make every Force ability a "power" that needed to be raised. What I tend to do in my campaign is to allow just about any skill to be used as a reaction, if it is justified. For example, I7ve allowed character who spring a pit trap to use Climbing/Jumping as a reaction skill.
I think the "quick fix" would be to allow Jedi to "react parry" blaster bolts using Sense as in first edition. That way LS combat is still worth raising, but a Jedi isn't so vulnerable to blaster fire when he doesn't have it up.
Also another fix would be to assume that actions that don7t require a roll, don't count in terms of sequencing. So a character can draw a weapon an attack or parry, taking the -1D MAP, but not counting as the character's first action.
| Quote: |
One of the goals of my D6 Legend variant is to speed up play and one way I plan to do this is reduce die rolls. Like Grimace said in his example I posted earlier, I would trim down all Force powers to one die roll. Maybe you still have to have prereqs from other Force skills and powers. I don't have Affect Mind in front of me right now but I would probably reduce it to an Alter roll. |
I'm with you there. One idea I have is to reduce all Force Power to a single roll, using the lowest power vs. the highest difficulty. So something like Affect Mind would use the lowest of the character's CSA skill vs the worst difficulty. Making the character use the lowest skill helps to ensure that all three powers are still important.
Another idea, and one I saw in D20 SAGA, is to make Force Points more useful for using Force Powers than they are now. In SAGA many powers either have special effects or just work automatically if a character spends a FP. So maybe allowing a character to spend a FP to use the Force Power without it counting as an action might be an idea. So spending a FP might make retrieving a lightsaber with TK or activating LS Combat free actions.
| Quote: |
Another option I'm considering is to combine use of Force powers with "normal" skills. For Affect Mind maybe a successful Alter roll will allow you to combine your Alter dice with your Persuasion dice, Con dice or whatever you are trying roll in the situation.
I'm just thinking out loud here... |
I'm thinking along the same lines. I7ve got two ideas I'm thinking of. Either substituting the skill with the Force skill, or standardizing all Force powers to add +1 pip per D to the "force enhanced" ability, avoiding MAPS for the raised ability. So something like Magnify Senses would add +1 pip per D in Sense to the character's Perception and so forth.
[quote=Ankhanu]
For all those who have issues with RAW and reconciling how it doesn't match up exactly with film sequences, well, never underestimate the power of plot. As with any RPG, WEG Star Wars rules are guidelines, not hard and fast concepts to be rigidly adhered to, and if a sequence cannot be reconciled the way you want by the expressly stated rules your SOL. [/quote]
Ankhanu,
It is kind of funny how peple have commented on how well the rules fit the setting then. Personally I rather tweak the rules so that they do fit the way things work in the films. Players are going to want to have the potential to do the sort of things they see on screen.
For example, the D6 rules imply that Luke used the Concentration power to destroy the Death Star. But, "by the book" he couldn't have, since doing so would mean that he didn't do anything else during thr round, including piloting his X-Wing. |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really think it's funny at all. Overall, the rules fit the setting; produce a fast, easy to run game environment that supports emulating the gritty, dangerous world without getting bogged down by minutia. That does not mean that the rules 100% reflect what's seen in the films in every instance... something that I think is impossible to reconcile while maintaining the simplicity that is the core of the d6 system. It can be improved, yes, but it will never cover every instance. I've yet to encounter a game system that comes close to doing this, even when they're more complex. Emulating what's read in the various D&D books using the D&D rules... well just take a look around the WotC forums and you'll see very similar discussions.
Sometimes the rules have to take a back seat to cinematics. It's implicit in every game system I've encountered.
I also don't think that the example of Luke concentrating on the shot against the DS goes against RAW either. You're right, he couldn't do anything but that shot in the round... couldn't even pilot... but that's pretty much what we see in the film. He stops paying attention to where the ship is going to make the shot. The direction of the ship was set in the rounds prior. Just because he's not actively throttling, braking and steering doesn't mean the ship stops; it's space, the X-Wing will continue moving in its current vector until acted upon. Luke stopped actively piloting and instead switched to firing... then concentrating on the shot, shot... next round peels away.
Was he lucky that he didn't hit anything? Sure, but it's not outside the realm of what's seen.
I recognize this sounds a little like rationalization... but any discussion of matching game mechanics to something that was created without those mechanics in mind is an effort in rationalization 
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I could see some powers being reactive, but imo making danger sense one is going a little too far.
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Rerun941
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Well said, Ankhanu
Sometimes, the GM just needs to step in and say "I'm making it happen because I say so." and like you said, just don't do that frequently.
Besides, I always thought Luke just spend a Force Point to take the shot.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I could see some powers being reactive, but imo making danger sense one is going a little too far. |
Danger Sense it it's current incarnation, yes. But Danger Sense in the form of rolling Sense to notice that you are in danger, no. In it's current form Danger Sense doesn't so much detect danger as such. It just "slows" the opposition down and limits how they can act. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | I don't really think it's funny at all. Overall, the rules fit the setting; produce a fast, easy to run game environment that supports emulating the gritty, dangerous world without getting bogged down by minutia. That does not mean that the rules 100% reflect what's seen in the films in every instance... something that I think is impossible to reconcile while maintaining the simplicity that is the core of the d6 system. It can be improved, yes, but it will never cover every instance. I've yet to encounter a game system that comes close to doing this, even when they're more complex. Emulating what's read in the various D&D books using the D&D rules... well just take a look around the WotC forums and you'll see very similar discussions. |
I think we differ in how well we think the game emulates the setting. There are quite a few "sticking points" that the game doesn't emulate to well, the Force being one.
As far as encounter a game that comes close to emulating this (on any other setting), well, that is naturally something that is subjective and hard to prove or disprove. I can think of several RPG that I think do come closer to matching the feel of the respective settings than d6 (BTW, d20 is not among them), or could work as well or better than d6, but that's my opinion.
I do not expect any RPG to handling 100% of anything. It's unrealistic. All games are designed around a "sweet spot" and tend to be less effective the farther away they get from this spot. But, I do think, as you do, that d6 can be improved in some respects. The thing I see with d6 is that while it does handle most things well, it doesn't handle the Force well. Now while again, 100% accuracy is an impossible goal, the curreny accuracy in regards to the Force is too low. Its not that a couple of scenes aren't working, but most of them.
Now I just don't accept that every time someone uses the force the "GM" is stepping in and saying "oh, I'm being cinematic here". Especially in an RPG. Players who play an RPG want to be able to do the kind of things they see characters doing in the films. Maybe not as good "out of the gate" and maybe they have to spend time to "earn" it, but that is what they are aiming for. Rather than just say "this is cinematic", I'd rather have the system be cinematic. Now in some areas, d6, isn't. FOr example, lightsaber duels. In the films there is lots of swordplay, and tension leading up to one character being defeated. In the RPG it plays out at he who gets a hit wins.
The whole point of House Rules is to try and improve up perceived deficiencies.
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Sometimes the rules have to take a back seat to cinematics. It's implicit in every game system I've encountered. |
Well, I don't know what game systems you have encountered, but since not every RPG is designed to be cinematic, I don't think your assumption holds for all RPGs. It all depends on what style/genre the RPG is geared for, or being used for.
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I also don't think that the example of Luke concentrating on the shot against the DS goes against RAW either. You're right, he couldn't do anything but that shot in the round... couldn't even pilot... but that's pretty much what we see in the film. He stops paying attention to where the ship is going to make the shot. The direction of the ship was set in the rounds prior. Just because he's not actively throttling, braking and steering doesn't mean the ship stops; it's space, the X-Wing will continue moving in its current vector until acted upon. Luke stopped actively piloting and instead switched to firing... then concentrating on the shot, shot... next round peels away.
Was he lucky that he didn't hit anything? Sure, but it's not outside the realm of what's seen. |
But if a PC is in a similar situation he will fly smack into the walls of the trench. If he is playing in 2nd edtion R&E, he won't even be able to attempt the shot, since going "full throttle" prevents you from doing anything else during the round.
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I recognize this sounds a little like rationalization... but any discussion of matching game mechanics to something that was created without those mechanics in mind is an effort in rationalization |
No. Trying to make something seem consistent with the other is a rationalization, not doing so isn't. For example, having a discussion that there is sound in space in Star Wars, despite the fact that sound doesn't travel in space isn't a rationalization. Coming up with some sort of sci-fi type justification for the sound is a rationalization.
Now the goal of an RPG is to allow players to emulate the setting. Sticking with Luke's Death Star run, a player in a similar situation, with similar abilitres is going to want to be able to attempt the same thing. The rules say "No, you can't do that." But, there is really no good reason for it. It would not make the game any more complicated to allow other actions with Concentration. Actually it would be easier, since we would be defaulting to the normal rules. It wouldn7t even cause game balance problems, since the mulitaction penalties make it counterproductive to do too many things while concentrating, anyway.
Similarliy, many of the other situations where the game mechanics don't fit the films has been becuase of changes in the rules over the years, and the rules could be made to better emulate the setting by getting rid of some of the changes, reinstating old rules or adapting some current ones to allow characters to do things that there used to be able to do. This is especially true with sequencing actions. In the films, "Affect Mind" is always something that happens quickly. In the 2nd edition rules of the RPG, by the time the character gets through three actions, it is probably too late. Now having "Affect Mind" sequenced as one action shouldn't require a GM to intervene in the name of cinematics. The character is doing one action and it should be treated as such.
We don't have characters taking extra time to Perception checks to look at the controls when they are piloting, or take extra time for actually reading the flight data that the controls display. SO I don't think it is right for "Affect Mind" to take any more time that its takes to wave your hand.
And I don't think we need to, or should rationalize it as "cinematics". I thnk we should simply treat it as what it is, a flaw in the rules, and treat it as such.
Otherwise we all can pretty much defend any discrepancy with any system as being "cinematic". That would be a different type of rationalization. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But if a PC is in a similar situation he will fly smack into the walls of the trench. If he is playing in 2nd edtion R&E, he won't even be able to attempt the shot, since going "full throttle" prevents you from doing anything else during the round. |
I have had some argue that with me before.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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It can be a slippery slope, certainly. As you said, I don't think we exactly disagree, we just have different thresholds at which we are willing to say "screw it" and allow/disallow something. But yeah, there are points where the rules need an overhaul; but I can understand where the hold up is in, to use your example, lightsaber duels. It's easy to fix many of the problems by layering on top of the old rules, or adding more levels, what have you... but it's easy to lose the simplicity of the system at the same time. I've seen some house rules that do a pretty good job at making duels more interesting... but lose the spirit of d6 in the process.
Certainly, the mechanics of a lot of the Force Powers could be modified to better reflect what's seen. Danger Sense is a particular kicker, as is Enhance Attribure (as the thread itself suggests  ). The rules do suggest that a danger sense, as seen in the films, is possible... there just isn't a specific power written for it. The rules do say that the GM can give Force Sensitive characters warnings in the form of ill feelings, sensations, or what have you; it is then up to the player to interpret just what is about to happen... just like the Jedi would as seen in the films. When they passively sense incoming danger, they don't know what's coming, just get a sense of foreboding, and can react... and won't always choose the best way to do so.
This still brings us back to the problems of, for example, lightsaber combat and sequencing to deflect/parry an attack and the system's failings.
My argument is that a character may be permitted to instantly rush through the sequence to parry a blaster shot, for example... if the GM deems the circumstances appropriate and it furthers the story. It shouldn't be all the time, but a once in a while "hot damn! That was cool!" moment... ya know, given the limitations of the game mechanics, failing having a good alternative.
Having a good alternative rule set is a great idea, but much easier said than done... particularly if one wishes to maintain the spirit of the d6 system. That, ultimately, is the stumbling block. Fixing the rules is easy. Fixing the rules while maintaining the utter flexibility and simplicity of the system is another issue altogether I'm game for trying (and have), but recognize that it may not be possible to reconcile elegantly.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Prob is, when you allow one of those "hot damn" moments for them to rush it through it sets the precident that it can happen any time.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Prob is, when you allow one of those "hot d*mn" moments for them to rush it through it sets the precident that it can happen any time. |
That is a threat, I suppose... but the GM always has veto power. This is just an extension of that concept. What the GM can always deny, the GM can once in a while allow.
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