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The Will of the Force
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JT Swift
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:33 pm    Post subject: The Will of the Force Reply with quote

Howdy!

I'm new to the boards (though I've been lurking for over 2 years).
After a 9 year break (where I ran GURPS Star Trek) I'm dusting off my WEG collection and preping to run a game. Hopefully I'll be able to be sorta active arround here.

Here's my first attempt. I'm not sure which catagory this would go under as figuring out what the Will of the Force is could be a Character issue (is the Force a character?), a GM Issue (since they alway play the Force), or a House Rule (as its sorta a fan developed idea). Moderators can feel free to toss this into a more appropriate section.

If you can see holes in this theory, either because it violates what's been stated in the movies or EU or because it just doesn't make intrinsic sense feel free to point them out. I'm trying to get some feed back on this and stir up some conversation around here. If you have alternative takes on it I'd love to hear about those too.

Also if anyone has their own counter theory for how it all fits together I'd love to hear that too.

Yoda said that the life creates (present tense IIRC) the Force and makes it grow. Yoda also said that everyone (Jedi or not) who dies becomes one with the Force. Obiwan says the Force can and does control a Jedi’s actions (though it also will obey a Jedi’s commands).

Stover’s excellent “Shatterpoint” novel shows that the more Mace is able to give up his own wishes and goals and submit himself to the Force the more amazing and bad @$$ he gets (both on a small tactical scale and on a grand strategic one). This seems to fit a lot of what we see in the movies IMHO.

The EU had Jedi debating whether the Force truly has an awareness or if it simply an unthinking aspect of life in the universe. Corellian Jedi seem to lean towards the latter interpretation. Qui-Gon seemed to lean towards the former.

So what is the will of the Force? Or if it lacks awareness and is merely and energy field, then in what ‘direction’ does this Force/Energy Field push?

I’m thinking Yoda’s line about life making it grow is the key. The EU had a beautiful essay about the force gaining power and eventually a form of awareness as the life throughout the galaxy evolved and gained intelligence. If the spirits of all of the deceased really do become part of the Force then it stands to reason that they should have some affect on its nature.

I’m thinking that the Force WANTS to grown in power and complexity. To this end it will guide those who can hear it on a path that increases life and life’s complexity. To miss-use some pop lingo, the Force is ‘pro-life.’ But there’s an important caveat – Life only joins with the Force at the moment of death.

The LAST line of the EU’s Jedi Code is “There is no Death, there is the Force.” So life does make the Force grow – but only by its death. However the Force doesn’t want every living thing killed for at least 3 reasons.
A. Everything dies, so what’s the hurry? In the end the Force will triumph.
B. More complex (i.e. educated and self-aware) beings might lead to more powerful/aware Force. So longer lived beings might be preferred.
C. If EVERYTHING was killed there would be no next generation and the Force would stagnate.
For all these reasons it’s in the Force’s best interest for life to propagate as much as possible.

Now this ‘Will of the Force’ could be a conscious choice of the Force. It could be a simple instinct (like a dog’s instinct to eat when hungry), it could be completely without conscious thought (like a plant turning towards the sun), it might even be a simple ‘force’ of nature (like water running down hill or evolution) - Lots of room for Jedi scientists and philosophers to debate (as seen in the EU and the Episode IV novelization).

So where do the Jedi come in? Well if the Force likes sapient people (over say trees) then its going to want to maximize the number of sapient lives out there (so that when they die they will help the Force to grow). Civilization is the best way of supporting vast numbers of sapient so – in an indirect sense – vast civilizations is what the Force wants.

After spending a bunch of time getting away from the needs and wants and attachments of normal life the early Jedi discovered that the Force ‘wanted’ them to take an active part in society. Though their ability to communicate with the Force was dependent on remaining outside of the world they nevertheless found that defending and nurturing civilization was their mandate. The Jedi interpreted this as a requirement to be the servants of life and civilization - the guardians of peace and justice.

The Sith, on the other hand, acquire their knowledge of the Force through and acts of raw unmitigated ego. One can only be enraged or filled with hate if they somehow believe that their path/idea/intellect/opinion/etc is superior in someway to what is happening. Thus the more their ego grows the more the can access the Force. The more they access the Force the more powerful they become. With such power and such ego they make the obvious leap that they are superior to all non-force users (and probably most force users as well). But the will of the force is to maximize the potential life and civilization that it might grow. The Sith therefore conclude that they have divine power and divine knowledge – it’s only logical that they should take command of civilization and govern it in a way that will maximize life. Anyone who stands in their way stands in the way of the Will of the Force and must be killed. The fact that killing makes the Force stronger only reinforces their POV.

Why do the Sith see themselves as superior to the Jedi? Well the Dark Side offers much quicker and easier access to the Force. It requires no restrictions or self-denial. No deeper knowledge is required to access the power. So, in comparison, the Jedi just look foolish; people who toil and sacrifice for something that’s being given away. The fact that the Jedi go to such extreme lengths not to kill (and thus deny the Force the chance to grow) is also seen as weak willed and even hypocritical. The Sith also seen their top-down approach to propagating life as being infinitely more efficient then acting as the servants of all and trying persuade inferiors to do the ‘right thing.’

Why don’t the Jedi and Sith work together if their after the same thing?
To be honest if there wasn’t all the bad blood between then the Sith might be perfectly willing to let wishy-washy Jedi serve their Empire. After all most of the things that Jedi do stabilize a civilization. However the millennium of conflict between the two cultures has lead to a need for vengeance that requires the extermination the Jedi.

Of course the Jedi consider the Sith’s abuse of the Force and the abuse of non-force users as a crime and view the Sith as criminals who are effectively immune to any prosecution save that of the Jedi. The Sith philosophy of conquest, rule by fear, and domination is so abhorrent that the Jedi Order feels it must stand against the Sith at every opportunity. The fact that few other organizations have the power to stand up to the Sith reinforces the Jedi’s hard-line approach/attitude.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's quite a lot to tackle all in one post. I'll focus on one thing and then move on from there. The debate as to whether the Force grows from the life of a being or its death is one that I've heard discussed before. Fortunately, the movies keep things ambiguous enough to let people be fairly safe on either side.

That said, however, I'm kind of in the idea that living beings contribute to the Force before the time of their death. Obi-Wan says that it extends from all living things, rather than the death of all living things, and Yoda says that life creates it. However, I think it's clear that a being can become one with the Force in death. The question is, does becoming one with the Force function as an alternative to an otherwise normal death, or is that the norm? Further, does that becoming one with the Force contribute to the Force, or does the Force contribute to you?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh there’s certainly lots of room for interpretation. I’m just trying to see if I can find a theory that makes is all fit together.

Quote:
I'm kind of in the idea that living beings contribute to the Force before the time of their death.


And that’s certainly one of the points I was uncertain about. Everything I can find says life creates the Force, but I haven’t (so far) found anything the states whether that creation occurs while the being is alive or at moment when the luminous being is freed from the ‘crude matter.’

In Episode IV ObiWan only says that it penetrates all living things (an input not an output). Does he say that it ‘extends from all living things’ in some other story?

Even if one does contribute something to the Force while being alive it still leaves most of my theory undamaged (especially if the major contribution doesn’t occur till death).

Quote:
The question is, does becoming one with the Force function as an alternative to an otherwise normal death, or is that the norm? Further, does that becoming one with the Force contribute to the Force, or does the Force contribute to you?


In Episode III he says that all people who die TRANSFORM INTO the Force. So that is the normal form of death in a GFFA. In answer to your latter question, it seems that you would contribute to the energy field of the Force that already exists (though given that you ARE the Force after death its sorta a matter of POV).

Thanks! Looking forward to hearing your comments (or anyone else’s) on the rest of the piece.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, too, feel that the Force grows from life while it like is ...well... alive. Not when it dies.

I also don't feel that everyone dying simply adds to the Force. Would those not sensative to the ways of the Force contribute to the "Will" of the Force if they don't even know anything about the Force? I highly doubt it. Their life helps it grow. Their death will cause it to shrink.

Those that are more attuned to the Force may be absorbed by the Force when they die, but it is more their memories than any sort of power gain by the Force. If anything, the death of someone more attuned to the Force would be just like the death of someone that cannot ever feel the Force...less life means a slightly weaker Force.

So by my interpretation of it, death does not cause the Force to grow in power at all. It causes it to reduce in power. Only life can cause the Force to exist and grow.

As some aspect of support for this, I would use Exar Kun as an example. In his attempt to seperate his spirit from his body in a bid to become super powerful, he was blocked from doing. In the conflagration that consumed all life on Yavin 4 yet left Exar Kun alone and trapped in the temple, he was too weak in the Force to free himself or summon help. If death makes the Force stronger, all of the death from all of the things dying in the massive firestorm that ravaged Yavin 4, Exar Kun would have had ample power to do things with using the Force. As it was, he was powerless, depleted, trapped and eventually dead.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also don't feel that everyone dying simply adds to the Force. Would those not sensative to the ways of the Force contribute to the "Will" of the Force if they don't even know anything about the Force? I highly doubt it.


Well Yoda says those who die Transform into the Force. If there’s suddenly new Force then it’s probably safe to say that that particular bit of life has just made the Force grow.

Quote:
Their life helps it grow. Their death will cause it to shrink.


That’s possible (from a certain POV) if its one of the ‘goose that lays the golden egg’ deals. Killing the goose will net you one more egg and that’s all. Where as a live goose will keep laying eggs. So while killing someone would never cause the Force to shrink it could (in the long term) reduce its rate of growth.

Quote:
So by my interpretation of it, death does not cause the Force to grow in power at all. It causes it to reduce in power.


Well Jedi have lied before so it’s possible that Yoda was just outright lying to Anakin.

Still until I can find a reference to the Force being created by life BEFORE it dies I’m sticking with the above theory. It fits everything stated in the movies and quite a bit of the more popular bits of the EU.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great topic! The Pit can get philosophical. Smile Here's my $0.02...

It is no secret that "The Force" is short for "life-force", or as Qui-Gon sometimes called it, "The Living Force".

Obi-Wan wrote:
The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us.

Yoda wrote:
For my ally in The Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow.

There is nowhere that the films even imply that the Force is only created through the death of life, or from death at all...

Living Force came into existance when the first living thing in the Star Wars galaxy (perhaps the first midichlorian) came to life. The more organic life that evolved and lived, the more Living Force...

The "energy field" Living Force exists before a living being's life. The Force enters a living being's body at the moment that life is concieved. And that's for any organic life-form.

In the case of a sentient being, that life-force can be thought of as becoming the person's "soul". The soul is nothing more than the Living Force in the form of a specific sentient individual. The general "energy field" Force still exists at the same time and flows through the person's specific form of Force (soul). According to Yoda, "Life" adds to the Living Force, so the "soul" grows and develops as the person does, and this growth adds to the Living Force. The life-form is never cut off from the general energy field Force while he's alive.

What Yoda was talking about in SW3 was that when a person dies, their own specific personal life-force (their soul) completely transforms back into into the great big, galactic general Living Force energy field from whence it came. The individual life that began at a person's conception ceases to exist as their soul completely re-join's the one Living Force. That is the norm for all beings, including most Jedi. (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin are the exceptions. Their souls maintained their identities, their individualisms, after their bodies' deaths, at least for a time. But they are still part of the Force as they were in life.)

Yoda's statement was really to demonstate his Buddhist-like Jedi lesson to Anakin. Don't be attached to someone so much to morn the loss of their life, because their life-force is really immortal. It just transforms back to its base form when the body dies. And for something to transform at death, it had to exist before death. Otherwise Yoda would have said they created Force or added to the Force in their death, but in SW5 he clearly said life create it.

Living things growing and reproducing is what makes the general energy field Force grow, not death. Individual life-forms were always a part of the Force their whole lives and contributing to it as it contributed to them. "Transform into the Force" means for the person's life-force to change form, not to begin new.

"There is no death, there is the Force" means that death is not really the end of an individual life-form's life-force. The Force is life. The death of an individual is only a change in form of their Force from partially specific and individual, to completely general and merged with the whole. The Force is constant. Death does not kill the Force.

As far as "the Will of the Force", well that's just George Lucas. 8)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy!

Sorry to take so long to reply! Life’s been busy!

Quote:
Yoda wrote:
For my ally in The Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow.

There is nowhere that the films even imply that the Force is only created through the death of life, or from death at all...


I’ll agree that it’s merely an assumption that only death creates the Force. However Yoda does say that people who die transform into the Force. That means that means that more Force has been created by death.

Quote:
Living Force came into existance when the first living thing in the Star Wars galaxy (perhaps the first midichlorian) came to life. The more organic life that evolved and lived, the more Living Force...
The "energy field" Living Force exists before a living being's life. The Force enters a living being's body at the moment that life is concieved. And that's for any organic life-form.


See, now that’s what I need - Info like that. What’s all this from?

Quote:
In the case of a sentient being, that life-force can be thought of as becoming the person's "soul".


Yoda seems to indicate that the soul becomes the Force, not the other way around.

Quote:
The soul is nothing more than the Living Force in the form of a specific sentient individual. The general "energy field" Force still exists at the same time and flows through the person's specific form of Force (soul). According to Yoda, "Life" adds to the Living Force, so the "soul" grows and develops as the person does, and this growth adds to the Living Force. The life-form is never cut off from the general energy field Force while he's alive.


Oh I agree with all that. As long as the midichlorians are there then life-forms can communicate and interact with the Force.

Quote:
What Yoda was talking about in SW3 was that when a person dies, their own specific personal life-force (their soul) completely transforms back into into the great big, galactic general Living Force energy field from whence it came.
The individual life that began at a person's conception ceases to exist as their soul completely re-join's the one Living Force.


He doesn’t use the words ‘back’ or RE-join. But if you’ve got some other source for that I’d love to hear about it. I want to see if this theory works with the EU if possible.

Quote:
Yoda's statement was really to demonstate his Buddhist-like Jedi lesson to Anakin. Don't be attached to someone so much to morn the loss of their life, because their life-force is really immortal. It just transforms back to its base form when the body dies. And for something to transform at death, it had to exist before death. Otherwise Yoda would have said they created Force or added to the Force in their death, but in SW5 he clearly said life create it.


But Yoda considers death to be a natural part of life. So anytime HE uses the word ‘life’ death is one of its facets.

Quote:
Living things growing and reproducing is what makes the general energy field Force grow, not death.


Well that’s what my theory states. If their were no living things and no reproduction the Force would never grow.

Quote:
Individual life-forms were always a part of the Force their whole lives and contributing to it as it contributed to them. "Transform into the Force" means for the person's life-force to change form, not to begin new.


I never stated that it began new. I hadn’t considered the possibility that it took an infusion of Force to create a living being. I’d love to hear more about this idea.

Presumably the Force gets a something out of the above deal (either during or at the end of the creature’s life) otherwise the Force would be DEPLEATED as populations increased.

Quote:
As far as "the Will of the Force", well that's just George Lucas.


Well that’s not likely to help the struggling GM. Wink

Thanks for the insights! I look forward to hearing more about this idea that the Force must (temporarily) deplete itself to create new life. It certainly pays to examine both ends of the life cycle!

Right off to work out the details of my PC’s attack on the Imperial Swimmer in “Battle for the Golden Sun”!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
"Living things growing and reproducing is what makes the general energy field Force grow, not death."


Well that’s what my theory states. If their were no living things and no reproduction the Force would never grow.


And previously you wrote:
Quote:

So life does make the Force grow – but only by its death. However the Force doesn’t want every living thing killed for at least 3 reasons.


So are you saying that the Force is only added to when people die? Or are you saying that things growing and reproducing add to the Force?

Another thing to be careful of...don't pick and choose what you're going to accept from Yoda and what you're not going to accept. By saying: "But Yoda considers death to be a natural part of life. So anytime HE uses the word ‘life’ death is one of its facets." and still not accepting the plainly spoken words of Yoda that "Life creates it, makes it grow." you're basically invalidating things.

So my suggestion... since you're creating this view of the Force to help people, pick a grounding point (say Yoda, for example) and stick with everything that he says. Don't go for "implied" or "means", just go with the words he said, as that's the only thing that's hard and fast. Implied meaning depends entirely upon a concensus of outside sources, and you're not likely going to get a concensus of people to agree with everything you've put into text.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to take so long to reply to this. Life got busy and I wanted to make sure my answer was well thought out.

Quote:
So are you saying that the Force is only added to when people die?


That’s my hunch. Other posters have argued differently (and they could well be right) but haven’t offered much in the way of evidence.

Quote:
Or are you saying that things growing and reproducing add to the Force?


Its like saying grass growing and reproducing add to a cow. (Yes, I just compared the Force to a cow Wink )

Is the growing and reproducing of grass essential to the growth of a the cow? Yes. But the grass only contributes to the cow upon its death. Yet (if the cow knew what was good for it) it wouldn’t try to eat all the grass in the field on the same day. In fact it would do well to encourage the grass to grow and proliferate as much as possible (especially if it had some way to talk to the grass).

Quote:
Another thing to be careful of...don't pick and choose what you're going to accept from Yoda and what you're not going to accept. By saying: "But Yoda considers death to be a natural part of life. So anytime HE uses the word ‘life’ death is one of its facets." and still not accepting the plainly spoken words of Yoda that "Life creates it, makes it grow." you're basically invalidating things.


If a wise old farmer (with a mediocre grip on English/Basic) told you “grass creates the cow…makes it grow.” Would you consider that a reasonable statement? It’s a bit poetic, and simplifies the situation, but essentially true.

If I later overheard the farmer saying, “When grass is eaten it transforms into cow” I’d consider that an important clarification. Hearing him say “Being eaten is a natural part of being grass” wouldn’t hurt my conclusion either.

So, I’m trying to take every statement I can get on the issue and trying to fit them together. And it’s quite possible I’m accidently leaving some info out. There could be more statements like “Grass releases oxygen which allows the cow to grow” or “When the cow dies it turns back into grass” that would further clarify what might be a very complex process. But (as of yet) I haven’t found those statements.

Quote:
So my suggestion... since you're creating this view of the Force to help people, pick a grounding point (say Yoda, for example) and stick with everything that he says. Don't go for "implied" or "means", just go with the words he said, as that's the only thing that's hard and fast. Implied meaning depends entirely upon a concensus of outside sources, and you're not likely going to get a concensus of people to agree with everything you've put into text.


To be honest I wasn’t looking for consensus so much as proof-reading. It wanted people to trouble shoot the theory by pointing out contradictory information I’ve forgotten to consider.

If some readers LIKE the above idea and have it in the back of their head when GMing the Force that’s just an added bonus. The fact that the “life only directly creates Force upon its death” point is the only one people have quibbles about means that the rest of the ideas (that aren’t directly extrapolated from that tenant) have some consensus.

I figured there was enough controversial statements in the above piece that lots of people would try tear it apart. And that shows me where the weak links are.

For example I hadn’t considered that an injection (penetration?) of Force might be necessary for a new life-form to be created. And does a life-form give off Force on a daily basis (like grass gives off ‘oxygen’). Intriguing ideas – but I need more data (from the Movies or the EU) to know how seriously to take these ideas.

Still I’ve found the above theory gives a nice overall structure to the Force in my games. When my players trust to the Force for guidance (and when my dark side NPCs do the same) it gives me a direction to push them in.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not exactly a cannon argument but I did notice this while I was looking something else up on Wookieepedia
Wookieepedia: The Dark side of the Force wrote:
Wounds in the Force

"When you returned to us, we saw what had happened. You carry all those deaths at Malachor within you, and it has left a hole, a hunger that cannot be filled."
―Vrook Lamar on the Jedi Exile

A wound in the Force was the result of a massive and sudden loss of life. As the Force is derived from life, it would become traumatized and wounded, affecting the places and people involved. The wound would never heal, and always hunger for life to fill the hole where life once existed. Such wounds could cause great harm to any life that came in contact, corrupting it or devouring it. Proximity to these wounds could often cause a rapid fall to the dark side or worse. Well known Force wounds included Malachor V, the Jedi Exile, and Darth Nihilus.

Malachor V was once an agricultural world in the possession of the old Sith Empire. During the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi General Revan massed his fleet of Republic warships over the planet, which was a taboo world for the Mandalorians. Unable to resist battle, the Mandalorian fleet attacked, and fought savagely. However, the Jedi General in charge of the Mass Shadow Generator, a superweapon designed by Bao-Dur, gave the order to activate it, crushing both fleets in the gravitational forces of the planet, and sending thousands of vessels crashing into the surface of the planet. The world's crust shattered, leaving a dead planetoid floating in space, surrounded by wreckage.

The same Jedi General, unable to bear experiencing thousands of deaths through the Force—deaths that she caused—shut herself off from the Force, and thus created a wound within herself. When later standing trial before the Jedi Council, the Masters would comment on how empty she felt, as if they were staring into the death of the Force.

Darth Nihilus, yet another product of Malachor, would become such a powerful wound that the dark side would completely devour his mind and body. He would roam the galaxy, hunting Jedi and other Force-sensitives to feed on. He was able to wipe all life off the planet of Katarr, and cause anyone in close proximity to him to be slowly drained of life. His constant pursuit of Force-sensitives to consume earned him the title "Lord of Hunger".

Other wounds in the Force include the space over Endor where the second Death Star once was and the remains of the Carida system


The page itself should have the references you want to further clarify the example it uses.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to take so long to reply to this….

Regarding Wounds to the Force: It seems like anytime someone dies a violent death then a Force in that area is tainted with those negative emotions. It would appear that as they transfer into Force energy the aggressive or fearful feelings the victim was feeling shaped and distorts that Force energy.

Having strong enough negative emotional energy at the moment of death [through quantity of deaths or quality of death] is probably what created these Force Wounds. The Force in these areas could be toxic enough that it actually causes some cellular death in any being that passes through them. Sickening them as, cell by cell, their life energy is converted to into the Dark Side of the Force.

Regarding the idea that Life ONLY creates the Force upon death I think I was wrong/right. Midi-Chlorians are the intermediary between the Force and living things. I’m now thinking that when a cell dies the Midi-Chorians convert that cells life energy into the Force.

So when a living being dies all its cells die and all of its energy is transformed into the Force [as Yoda said].

But all multi-cellular life-forms have cells dying throughout their body all the time. Lots of cells die in a human body every minute. So just by ‘living’ a person generates new Force. Life does create the Force and makes it grow [again as Yoda said].

Which means everyone who complained about my “only death creates new Force” statement were right. A living being has parts of him that are dying all the time. And thus living beings are always creating new Force energy.

Thanks for all the reviews everyone. You complaints kept me looking for a better answer. In this case the answer was pretty obvious – but it took me a few months to see what was staring me in the face.

Any further comments and/or observations are as always welcome!
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Bobmalooga
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'The will of the Force' is just an expression used in the movies and books, much in the same way the expression 'the will of God' is used when talking about happens that go on in day to day life.

Now if you really want to get into whether or not the Force is aware, I'd say no, but then again that can be interpreted many different ways. Check out Wookiepedia on the matter, they talk about this very topic in the write up on the Force.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

Keith
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If death increases the force, then when all life was suddenly snuffed out on Alderan by the Death Star the Force had a sudden upsurge in power. So Obi-Wan is not shaken and upset at the loss of life, he is actually strengthened and renewed by the rapid increase in the power of the Force? And this is beneficial to the Force in the short term? Confused

He didn't look happy, strengthened, or renewed to me. How does that fit with your theory?

You appear wedded to your death strengthens the force idea, so I suspect you will discount contrary points of view, but I guess one bonus to your death strenghtens the Force is that the Sith would have a reason to be in favor of intensive industrial agriculture, rather than a low intensity agriculture since it ups the death quotient per unit of land.
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JT Swift
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea that some Jedi see the Will of the Force can be ambiguous isn’t contradicted by my theory.

If the Force is just a river that flows down a hill then which direction does it tend to flow and can we predict it? I postulate that it’s drawn in a direction that will maximize life. Given the Force can move forward and backward through time what seems like planning to us might very well being unthinking cause and effect.

Or maybe the Force has no more will then a plant does. It turns towards the light, it grows and reproduces. But it doesn’t think or react with any form of sentience or sapience. In this case the Force instinctually tries to help life grow because that helps it grow.

Or maybe [Bobmalooga hints] the Force could be like a god with some sort of sapient consciousness that can conceive children to defeat Force stealing Sith Lords. And it chooses to propagate and maximize life as a deliberate goal.

So, no, my theory doesn’t really try to pin down how smart the Force is. And, if anything it aims for the low end of the IQ chart.

The wookiepedia article is great for listing what we know about the Force. But it doesn’t really try to explain any of the data, it just collates it.

With regard to Alderaan’s destruction…

As I said in my previous post, people who die violently with negative emotions leave a dark side taint on the Force they transform into. This would not be the sort of thing Kenobi would like or enjoy.

It’s possible that Vader was invigorated and strengthened by Alderaan’s destruction [IIRC West End’s rules would have awarded him a Dark Side point AND a Force point for his part in Alderaan’s destruction].

Alternately numerous sources state that these dark side stains are fixed to gravitational fields [i.e. they stay in the same spot on a planet or in an orbit where they happened]. So Vader or Kenobi would have had to fly through the area of space where all those people died in order to tap into the power. [And again this would be tainted with fear and anger – not something Kenobi would ever use].

I’m not married to this theory. But I am dating it. And before things get too much more serious I’d like to get an opinion from everyone else who knows her family.

And yes, Yoda’s statement about life transforming into the Force at death can explain why the Sith are so obsessed with massive consumer/production based civilizations and government. Making the trains run on time leads [in the end] to more babies.

Did anyone have any more info on the idea [suggested by Whill] that the creating of new life TAKES Force energy? Is the Force diminished when new life is created? Is this Fannon? Or was it mentioned in some comic or novel and I just missed it?
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
You appear wedded to your death strengthens the force idea, so I suspect you will discount contrary points of view, but I guess one bonus to your death strenghtens the Force is that the Sith would have a reason to be in favor of intensive industrial agriculture, rather than a low intensity agriculture since it ups the death quotient per unit of land.


I always enjoy Bren's devil's-advocation Very Happy

Maybe I'm being obtuse, but what does the Dark Side have to do with this idea of the force here. On the one hand, it seems like you are setting the Dark Siders up as killers who kill the force by killing living beings. OTOH, my impression from the films and the early books is that death itself is no big deal. It wasn't like Vader wanted to (or even suggested) torching Alderaan to "kill" the force. And Palpatine's claimed abilities with cloning and necromancy seem to "grow" the force somehow... what does that do to this life=force concept. Not to sound silly, but what about dark side zombies instead of clones?

It seems fairly clear in the movies that the dark side is a very primal, intrinsic, urge-type internal threat. That's why it's easier to access than the light side. And it's got a real sexual side to it IMO- Palpatine seems almost orgasmic when he's describing Anakin/Luke's anger, rage, desire for revenge, and frying Mace Windu. Not so much from the death itself, but grooving on the internal conflict, surging emotions, and ultimately pain and suffering. Anakin gets darker as he cuts up the separatists on Mustafar as they plead for their lives and gaffing the padawan in the Jedi temple.

So, I don't see the deaths themselves "killing" the force, I see the pain and suffering and betrayal feeding the dark side in these circumstances. I don't see Alderaan or Order 66 "killing" the force so much as the utter surprise nature of these acts making for greater suffering on the part of the murdered.
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