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The Will of the Force
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think where I disagree with JT's postulate on the Force is it conflates the Dark Side and the Light Side into just The Force. I see the two sides as (mostly) separate.

Here is my take on the Dark Side and the Light Side. It comes by way of a Sioux story:

Two Wolves
One winter’s evening whilst gathered round a blazing camp fire, an old Sioux Indian chief told his grandson about the inner struggle that goes on inside people.

“You see” said the old man, “this inner struggle is like two wolves fighting each other. One is evil, full of anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, deceit, false pride, superiority, and ego”.

“The other one,” he continued, poking the fire with a stick so that the fire crackled, sending the flames clawing at the night sky, “is good, full of joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith”.

For a few minutes his grandson pondered his grandfather’s words and then asked, “So which wolf wins, grandfather?”

“Well”, said the wise old chief, his lined face breaking into a wry smile, “The one you feed!”

http://www.dontfeedthewolf.com/
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is an intereasting story, but I think the Force is probably more Eatern Philosophy than Sioux. More like a Yin-Yang realationship.

If thre two were entirenly sperate then one could exist without the other, I suspect the Jedi could have found a way to draw on the light without danger of the dark side.

THat they can't do so is the reason why they worry about the dark side.

Myview is that it is not two seperate forces, but two sides of the same Force.
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JT Swift
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Barrataria said: Maybe I'm being obtuse, but what does the Dark Side have to do with this idea of the force here. On the one hand, it seems like you are setting the Dark Siders up as killers who kill the force by killing living beings. OTOH, my impression from the films and the early books is that death itself is no big deal.


Most of the lightsiders we see seem to want to serve civilization and help it grow.
Most of the darksiders we see seem to want to control life and make it grow.

If the Dark and Light sides are two different paths to the same Force then both should lead in the same direction [even if the means are vastly different]. Given that life creates the Force I speculate that the Force wants to survive and grow and ‘grant’ its power to those who align themselves with that goal. More life equals more Force.

Of course the Darksiders realize that anyone they kill feeds the Force as well. So they don’t CARE if they kill people. It’s no big deal. It gives the Force a big burst of growth every time they do it. And the Dark Side is all about quick and easy. Darksiders don’t WANT to kill. But they feel no remorse about doing it if it would help [even in a small way] to achieve their goals.

Lightsiders however take the long path/view that life begets more life and try to avoid killing as a general rule.

Quote:
And Palpatine's claimed abilities with cloning and necromancy seem to "grow" the force somehow... what does that do to this life=force concept.


Actually my personal theory is that when Sidous came up with clone swapping trick to never die the Force felt cheated. The Force was never going to ‘get’ Sidous.
Then Sidous started stealing the Force of others for himself with the Drain Life Energy and Drain Life Essence Force Powers. Now Sidious was keeping his own energy and the energy of others from ever joining with the Force.

The Force got fed up and conceived Anakin Skywalker to bring Balance back to the Force.
[PS this doesn’t HAVE to be a conscious decision like I describe it. Anakin’s conception could be akin to a river pulling an obstructing tree out of the ground and washing it down stream]

Quote:
Bren: I think where I disagree with JT's postulate on the Force is it conflates the Dark Side and the Light Side into just The Force. I see the two sides as (mostly) separate.


I’m with Atgxtg on this issue. I’ve read far too much stuff in West End [and elsewhere] to see the Dark and Light Side as being to separate things. The term ‘sides’ even implies the same thing seen from different POVs. But YMMV.

I do have to confess a sneaky liking of the ideas about the Dark Side put forth in Stover’s “Traitor” novel. [SPOILERS!] The basic idea was that the Force doesn’t have dark or light sides. LIFE has dark and light sides. And its all in how WE choose to use the Force. But seeing as this theory is controversial INSIDE the Star Wars universe I’m certainly not expecting any consensus from fandom on this issue.

I LOVE the Sioux story BTW. Will be passing that on to my friends.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you want to get all Eastern, if the Dark Side and the Light Side are two different sides, then they are different. If they are both part of the Force, then they are the same. The Eastern dichotomy seems about things being different but the same but different (repeat ad infinitum).

I see them as related, but not the same.

JT has both being the same in that the Force only grows through death. Good death, bad death, doesn't matter. That seems to me to contradict what I see in the films, but I see the advantage if you want to make Sith and Jedi the same, but the Jedi just don't know it. Which is where I thought JT wanted to go.

JT, I think you can make a coherent world view out of that. And what you are describing holds together.

I think this is exactly how a Sith might explain the universe.

I prefer to run SW with the Sith philosophy being seductive, but ultimately wrong. But hey, YMMV.
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JT Swift
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do certainly see the Dark Side as the Wrong Way to go about things.

But I really like to have my villians make sense [from a certian POV]. And so a view of the Force that enfolds most of what we've heard about the Force and [again from a certain POV] JUSTIFIES the Sith is something I find quite helpful in playing the Sith and the Force in general.

Its easy for my players to laugh at a Sith philosophy that's all about Evil for Evil's sake. Its much harder for them to ignore the temptations of a Sith philosphy that is all about the greatest good for the greatest number [even if it mean the minorities are damned]. And the logic that those with a hotline to the power that guides the Universe should be calling the shots [instead of some elected gal who does not know the will of the universe].
I think the later philosphy is much scarier and [at the same time] more seductive.

In short, almost everything Sidious ever said was true from a certain POV, why shouldn't the same be true of his religious beliefs?
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lordnordeth
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always looked at the Force as existing in a "raw form" whether it gets used of not. When a sentient being learns of, and explores the Force, then their knowledge of the Force grows, and their tendancy to use the Force does as well (whether it be for the Light or the Dark). In using, and expanding their understanding of the Force, then the Force changes (the Ultimate in perception based reality...you want something to happen, you see it in your mind, and make it happen with the Force).
In using the Force to change the world around them, Force Users change and alter the Force as well, molding it to their will, and with this constant change, the Force continues to expand and grow to match the new reality they have created.
When a being dies, their personal part of the Force, returns to the greater whole, to go back into the world it helped to shape. In a way, it "adds" to the Force, but doesn't expand it, because that energy came from the Force to begin with, but in changing the world around them, they have left behind things that will cause others to question how they did it, explore the world, possibly discover the Force in some form, and use, or better understand it themselves, thereby causing the Force to expand further.

I see it kind of like the classic "If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one around to hear it, does it still make a sound?"
"If no living being uses the Force, does the Force exist per se, or is it simply a form of energy waiting to be used and to become "the Force"
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JT Swift
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Force is neither created nor destroyed, merely transformed and educated into more complex patterns? I Still haven’t found a reference to it taking an infusion of Force to create life – but I haven’t seen anything to contradict the idea either. So it’s a workable POV.

The idea that the Light and Dark Sides are a part of the individual and not and inherent part the Force itself reminds me of the revelations in Matthew Stover's excellent "Traitor" novel.

I need to get working on "The Path of the Jedi" and see if it has any new insights to these issues.
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lordnordeth
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes on the "Transformed and educated into more complex patterns", but it doesnt take an infusion of Force to create life...it just is. Everything is part of the Force (one way I use to explain it to people, is to ask whether there has to be an outside infusion of electrical current to "jumpstart" your body when you are created...No, it just "happens"...that energy/current that infuses your body naturally, that is the Force)...whether you choose to have it there or not, it is. If you take the time, and have the potential to learn it, then just maybe, you can learn to do something with it, otherwise, it's just "there" learning what you learn, and existing as you exist. When you as a person cease to be a person, that energy will still exist (See Laws of Thermo-Dynamics for detailed explanation)...so where does it go? Back to where it came from...The Universe/The Force/The Divine...however you choose to frame it in your mind...it's all the same thing.
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JT Swift
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, while life creates the Force, and life is transformed into the Force the creation of a new life form brings with it brand new Force potential.

The original balance of Force only increases as the life creates more Force. Its never diminished by new life being created.
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lordnordeth
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Life doesn't create the Force, it's simply part of the Force. The Force is (in most cases) necessary for life, but life is not necessary for the Force. Life lets the Force grow in experience and scope, but not in size. The Force just "is". It's neither created, nor destroyed, even though it is part of all creation. When something containing the Force dies/decomposes/gets destroyed, it's Force continues on as part of the greater whole of the Force.
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JT Swift
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Yoda said "Life creates it [the Force] - makes it grow."

And, while I grant you that my idea of "the death of living cells creates the Force" is a ret-con to make it fit with what Yoda says in Episode III my version it still mantains the basic idea.

The idea that life doesn't create the Force at all seems...rather unorthadox. What's your source for that Lordnordeth?
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lordnordeth
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing canon, just based on the various eastern philosophies and neo-pagan traditions that were originally drawn upon to create the concept of the Force, combined with Physics (again, laws of thermo-dynamics). A big part of the reason the Force was left to be so vague, was so that everyone could see part of what they believe in it.

As for using a Yoda quote to support an idea...wouldn't be the first time the lil bugger twisted words or outright lied. Especially when they (He and Obi-Wan) were so bound and determined to have Luke see things their way.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because he lied by omission on that one subject does not automatically mean that he lied about everything else.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds to me like yoda would make a great politician!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Sounds to me like yoda would make a great politician!


"A crook, I am not."
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