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Psudoscience and fantastic technology
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:14 pm    Post subject: Psudoscience and fantastic technology Reply with quote

Recently Vong and I had a discussion about the nature of Tiny's cybernetic, we discussed it and I did a little research (OK I read a few Wookieepedia pages and Gry's equipment book) but I thought the results were interesting enough to share. It stemmed from my thoughts that I could use The Hammer to attack active Thud bugs without the taking damage (if the roll was successful).

I'd been using/picturing The Hammer as though it created a bubble of repulsion around it, basically a solid force field that could be used as a club. I reasoned that the repulsors created a field of anti-gravity strong enough that it would be equivalent to being a solid object, thus it could be used to do damage and parry things. I also thought it could be used to 'levitate' objects over The Hammer if Tiny was deft enough to balance the object on the invisible anti-gravity field.

I'm going to attempt to summarize Vong's viewpoint here, although I'll probably end up with what I understand of Vong's viewpoint so if I get it wrong please correct it. I actually think the discussion was quite worthwhile.

Vong had been imagining The Hammer in far more scientific terms. As gravity has less effect the further away it is from it's source he imagined The Hammer to divert things rather than physically assault them with a wall of anti-gravity. The closer something got to The Hammer itself, the more strongly it'd feel the force of gravity and the more it'd be diverted/repelled. Hence a thud bug may well still make contact with Tiny or The Hammer even with a successful attack roll from Tiny. He explained as being akin to a cushion or two like poles of a magnet being pushed towards each other. There is force there but it's not until something gets really close before it becomes significant.

This argument makes far more scientific sense however I didn't see how it could really explain how the cybernetic would be described this way: "This brutal weapon is the mark of a being who has no concern for the law or morality." by Airen Cracken and I had difficulty imagining a cushion being used as a weapon at all.

Wookieepedia had the following to say:
The Repulse-Hand was a weaponized prosthetic created by Control Zone. Unlike many prosthetics, the repulse-hand was not covered with the synthskin that normally gave prosthetics the appearance of a real appendage, nor was it designed with a sensory interface that would allow the user to feel through the hand as though it were real. Presentability was not a concern to the bearers of this brutish weapon.

Within the tempor-alloy hand where miniature repulsor generators. This made the hand a brutal weapon in close combat, and allowed it to be used to parry weapons without suffering damage. In the event that the repulse-hand was struck by a weapon, the bearer would find himself thankful for the lack of a sensory interface. Worse still for a being that was touched by the hand while activated, as the multitude of repulsor generators would tear deep gashes in an opponents flesh, and even break bone.

This made me think that rather than the field being a uniform thing (akin to a fist wrapped in a force push) it was a constantly changing sea of gravitational rips eddies and storms and the different rates of repulsion and the interactions between warring forces creates almost a movable wave of damage and repulsion. I could definately see how this would be viewed as a brutal weapon and how it would be able to attack and parry things without taking damage.

It may not make quite as much sense in a scientific way but it makes sense with the nature of the device and it meant that while The Hammer shouldn't take damage from attacking active thud bugs it would potentially shred the thud bug it targets and high velocity fragments may then damage Tiny (and possibly anyone nearby). This also meant that a resilient item (such as an ampistaff) could be parried without any additional danger using The Hammer.

I've included the rules for The Hammer below what do other people think? Perhaps I'm the only one interested in psudo-science and fantasitc technology but I I'd like to hear other opinions.

Model: Control Zone Repulse-Hand
Type: Offense cyber prosthetic
Skill: Repulse-hand
Cost: 300 credits per pip (minimum cost 1,500)
Cyber Points: 2
Game Notes: Repulsehand adds 1D to repulse-hand damage.
User gains repulsehand skill at 0D. Must buy repulse-hand skill to equal or greater than Strength. Skill and damage are set at time of purchase and may not be improved at a later date. Skill replaces brawling and brawling parry and may be used for melee parry. For example, if a character wants to buy a repulse-hand at 4D+2, it will cost 4,200 credits.

Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 41)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Psudoscience and fantastic technology Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
Perhaps I'm the only one interested in psudo-science and fantasitc technology but I I'd like to hear other opinions.


Nope, I love it... but I approach it from a scientific background more than an arcane one. Particularly with a setting like Star Wars, and even more so, Star Trek, technology needs a logical scientific basis... but suspension of disbelief needs to enter into the equation as well; where suspension of disbelief rolls off is where things probably differ.

Re: the topic at hand (couldn't resist);
Vong's idea works better with a single repulsor field generator, creating a uniform field. The Repulse Hand, however, sports many small field generators that appear to pulse, rather than work continuously, which seems to heavily modulate the field. From the standpoint of a single source with sustained activity, simple gradual increase of field strength and deflection of incoming materials makes perfect sense. However, from the description of damage and fluff text in the Wiki, there are lots of generators that appear to be fluctuating in their power outputs, out of phase with one another. The idea that Vong presented is still present, but at time and spatial scales that are much smaller. You can think of it kind of like a plate of water jet nozzles where each nozzle gains and loses power at any given moment, and it's not necessarily reflected in the behaviour of its neighbour.

The way I see the Repulse Hand actually operating is in pulses, rather than sustained; when it's about to hit something, parry, etc, immediately before impact the generators trigger, sending a sudden force out from the cybernetic. The sudden application of force would be more traumatic to a body/item encountering it than gradually entering a field of increasing power. This would be where the destructive capability would come from; sudden application of a strong and turbulent force, kind of like a spring loaded stud suddenly popping out of something.

With all this in mind, I think it's probably impossible to get the sort of fine control of the field that Tiny wanted to display when trying to levitate things. The force would be directional as well, going out from the palm in a cone type of pattern, not an envelope (similarly, ground speeders have their fields directed to the ground, not all around the vehicle). This sudden pulse at the right moment would effectively deflect a projectile (or destroy it if it's not particularly tough), halt/deflect an incoming melee attack (perhaps allowing you to, for example, prevent the full power hit into the hand and then grab the weapon). With enough kinetic energy (and material strength) a weapon could still make it though the field, particularly if the timing of the pulse was off by a fraction of a second.

With the directionality of the field, and timing issues, a thud bug (or anything else) could certainly damage the Repulse Hand, particularly if it's not hitting anywhere near the palm, where the enhancement of the cybernetic originates. The way it's described and the way logic flows, the entire arm and back of the hand would not be protected by the repulsors at all.

I doubt it would have any effect on a lightsaber blade, which has no mass, and is therefore not influenced by gravity.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one reason I appreciate the fact that Gry whenever possible has tried to always include the source he got the stats from and the page you can find it on. Sometimes there's something in the description that can give a broader understanding of the item than the stats alone. And to add to the Wikipedia article, here's the description and Craken's addendum on the repulsor hand. From page 41 of Cracken's Rebel Fieldguide:


Quote:
Control Zone's repulse-hand prosthetic is unlike other prosthetics because it makes no pretense of being a real hand. It is a weapon and nothing else. The template does not grow synthflesh, so the hand remains silver-blue, the color of the tempor-alloy material. The hand does not have a sensory interface into the recipient's nervous system. Thus, the owner of the hand does not feel pain or other stimuli.

The repulse-hand prosthetic contains a small repulsor-generator inside it. Because of the repulsor-generator, the hand forces melee weapons out of the way even before it touches the weapon -- and this gives the owner of the hand an edge in combat. The hand can be used to parry melee weapons.

Addendum
This brutal weapon is the mark of a being who has no concern for the law or mortality. It is a weapon, pure and simple/ Isn't it enough that we must carry machines of destruction around with us all the time; that we must live and sleep in starships bristling with arms? The is a permanent mutilation of one's body. Bounty hunters, assassins, and ruthless thugs often get this enhancement, but at great cost to their spirit.


Ok, so between the stats and the description I kinda picture this being a little more like a point blank range blaster. You're not hitting the target with the hand itself but blasting it with a repulsor field. That close the field will do damage whereas the further away you get the less effective the field becomes. Think about a landspeeder, they use repulsor lifts to hover above the ground and have an altitude range. Luke's X-34 for example (maybe not his but that particular type) has a listed alttitude range of ground level to 2 meters. Can it get over two meters? Sure, if you jump it off something. But it can't hold a height of more than two meters, the repulsor lift just isn't strong enough to produce that kind of a field. So if you jump it and get up to three meters it's not going to hold that altittude.

As the range decreases I tend to see the repulsor field woud be felt more and more because it hasn't had the time to dissipate as much as it would at a further distance. Kinda like a compressed air air compressor. If you hold the nozzle trigger on the compressor and but you're hand in the stream, the closer in your hand is to the nozzle the more you're to notice the effects of the compressed air. At a far enough distance you notice no effects to your hand and just feel cool air. The closer in you get, however, the more the air stream begins to "dent" your flesh. And even closer in it stings a little (never played with a real serious industrial grade comprossor so I don't know if they can do any serious damage).
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
And even closer in it stings a little (never played with a real serious industrial grade comprossor so I don't know if they can do any serious damage).


Fear not (or perhaps fear greatly), you can certainly cut flesh with a focused enough stream of air Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But is that an air compressor or something else such as a compressed air plasma cutter?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you could get it simply from compressed air. The difficulty really comes in nozzle design, making something that will create a focused stream that doesn't split and spread for a distance (might only have to be a couple mm or less). Keeping a gas stream coherent is pretty difficult, it has a tendency to expand rapidly, especially from a compressed source. If you can get velocity without compression...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

works better as a water saw.

but looks like 2 opinions on the jet type theory. this would fit the descriptions of ripping as well, just because if you turn the jet on close it would rip flesh. i like the description like that

basically it would have a proximity sensor with a timed focused blast of repulsor pushing things away at the last second.

how does that sound to you eso?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so could we then say that theoretically we've come up with something from the real world that could potentially deal damage in a way similar to the repulsor hand though it doesn't repel.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't think so... nothing in the real world works on that sort of principle. The real world examples are all using matter, not forces. I suppose a real world similar example would be electromagnets rather than gravitational forces... of course they only work on ferrous metals Smile If multiple extremely strong small electromagnets were used and pulsed in the right circumstances I suppose a similar effect could be accomplished.

But yeah, I think we've used enough analogies to raise suspension of disbelief into a working game model Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is exactly the conversation I hoped would be started Very Happy

I'm very fond of Ank's idea of the timed pulse. It makes sense with the fact the the Repulse-Hand skill is static and cannot be improved with the expenditure of character points.

The skill in this case represents the power and spread of the repulsorlifts. Obviously the more repulsorlifts you have and the higher their output the more likely you are to achieve a better result. This much I'd already figured out in my own head.

I hadn't considered a timed pulse, the impact has nothing at all to do with the strength of the character it's all about the sudden burst of repulsion as Ank explains far more eloquently than I. However this works in with the inability to upskill. The hand's sensors determine when to activate the pulse and which pattern/spread to fire the repulsors in. Tiny can probably manually activate the hand (and likely has to arm it so it doesn't go off resting in his lap) but he'll never be able to match the onboard CPU in terms of proficiency so no matter how well he can learn position his arm to intercept blows he'll never upskill.

I did imagine the spread of repulsors would be able to deal with backhanding type attacks and punches as well as palm thrusts however.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, what about cyber points? I understand how they work, but before this thread was started we were discussing somewhat their issuance. Esoomian had said that putting two cyber points into the repulsor hand made sense since it was weaponized, but I'd countered that the neuro-shock hand only had one cyber point and yet it was also a weapon. Their the only cybernetics in Cracken's Rebel Field Guide that are more strictly speaking weapons, though there are others that could be used in combat to give an edge to their owners.

Here's all the ones from Cracken's Rebel Field Guide (thanks again to Gry for his Weapons Stats and Equipment Stats pdfs)
Quote:

Neuro-Shock Hand
Model: BioTech Neuro-Shock
Hand
Type: Offense cyber prosthetic
Skill: Brawling
Cost: 300 credits per pip of
damage, plus base cost of
1,000 credits
Cyber Points: 1
Game Notes: Neuro-Shock hand’s damage code replaces user Strength code for brawling damage. Recipient must buy at least enough damage to match his Strength code. Anytime the hand makes a heavy impact the shock energy is released.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field
Guide (page 40)

Repulse-Hand
Model: Control Zone
Repulse-Hand
Type: Offense cyber
prosthetic
Skill: Repulse-hand
Cost: 300 credits per
pip (minimum cost
1,500)
Cyber Points: 2
Game Notes: Repulse hand adds 1D to repulse-hand damage. User gains repulsehand skill at 0D. Must buy repulse-hand skill to equal or greater
than Strength. Skill and damage are set at time of purchase and may not be improved at a later date. Skill replaces brawling and brawling parry and may be used for melee parry. For example, if a character wants to buy a repulse-hand at 4D+2, it will cost 4,200 credits.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 41)

Replacement Prosthetics
Model: BioTech Repli-Limb Prosthetic Replacements
Type: Cybernetic prosthetics
Cyber Points: 1 per replacement
Cost: The following costs include the basic prosthetic and
operation:
Hand 1,000 credits
Arm 2,000 credits
Leg 2,000 credits
Knee 1,200 credits
Eye 2,750 credits
Ear 2,750 credits
Heart 5,000 credits
Kidney 4,500 credits
Lungs 4,000 credits
Availability: 4
Game Notes: The prosthetic is almost completely lifelike – a Difficult Perception roll is needed to tell the part from an organic one. The replacement has no special abilities.
Source: Cracken’s
Rebel Field Guide
(page 29), Heir to the
Empire Sourcebook (pages 109-110), Pirates & Privateers
(pages 50-51)

Cardio-Muscular Package
Model: Neuro-Saav Corporation Cardio-Muscular Package
Type: Increases Strength attribute/skills
Cost: 800 credits per pip
Cyber Points: 2
Game Notes: Operation takes one week. Recipient must spend another week recovering and adjusting to new implants. Doctor must make three Difficult medicine rolls over the week of the operation for successful implantation. If any of the rolls fail whenever the character makes a
Difficult or Very Difficult Strength or associated roll, the character must make a second Difficult Strength roll. If this second roll fails, the character muscles contract and the character falls prone for 2D minutes.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 35)

Response Improvement Package
Model: ‘Geneering Response iMprOVEMENT
Package (RiMPack)
Type: Increases Dexterity attribute/skills
Cost: 700 credits per pip
Cyber Points: 2
Game Notes: To install, doctor must make three Difficult medicine rolls over the week of the operation for success. If any of the rolls fail, the character becomes highly agitated, or hyperactivates, whenever he
rolls a 20 or higher with a Dexterity skill. During hyperactivation, the character is overwhelmed with sensory input for 2D minutes and is controlled by the gamemaster. The character may attack friends or foes, flee the scene or be hypnotized with fear.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 36)

Hifold Sensory Package
Model: Neuro-Saav Hifold Sensory Package
Type: Increases Perception attribute/skills
Cost: 400 credits per pip
Cyber Points: 2
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 38 ), Hero’s
Guide (page 131)

Hi-Sense Enhanced Eyes
Model: Neuro-Saav Hi-Sense
Enhanced Eyes
Type: Enhanced IR and UV eyes
Cost: 100
credits per pip
Cyber Points: 2
Game Notes: Increases recipient’s search skill. Base cost is 100 credits per pip of existing skill code, plus 200 per pip of enhacement.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 39)

Motion Interface Package
Model: SoroSuub Motion Interface Package
Type: Increases Mechanical attribute/skills
Cost: 400 credits per pip
Cyber Points: 2
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 37)

Cyborg Construct
Model: BioTech Borg Construct AJ^6
Type: Basic cyborg construct
Cost: 80,000 for unit, 70,000 for surgery, 400 cheaper if without cyborg/droid interface
Cyber Points: 3
Game Notes: Increases computer programming/repair by 2D. Increases any Knowledge or Technical skill by 1D. Construct can store up to 8D worth of additional information. Cyborg can read the data in his data banks at any time.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 31), Hero’s Guide (page 130)

Cyborg Knowledge Cartridges
Model: Perzome SoftWEAR Cyborg Knowledge Cartridges
Type: Knowledge cartridges
Skill: Cartridges are available only for knowledge and technical skills.
Knowledge Skills
Basic 3D skill 250 credits
Expert 5D skill 750 credits
Master 6D skill 1,000 credits
Technical Skills
Basic 3D skill 500 credits
Expert 5D skill 1,500 credits
Master 6D skill 2,000 credits
Availability: R
Cyber Points: 0
Game Notes: Cyborg construct can hold a maximum of 6D worth of skills. Cartridges replace user’s skill.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 34)

Cyborg/Computer Systems Data-Link
Model: Crozo Industrial Products At-Computer Link
Type: Allows long-range transfer of information between computer and cyborg
Cost: 500 (includes link with one computer), 100 for each additional computer
Range: 1,000 meters
Cyber Points: 1 (add 1 for each computer beyond the first)
Game Notes: Cyborgs can make computer programming rolls or give simple commands. At-Computer Link is linked to a specific computer, but extra computers may be added. Cyborgs can only manipulate simple operations on a ship, such as things that a computer normally handles by
itself. Air locks can be opened, grappling hooks deployed or released. Piloting and gunnery are far to sophisticated operations to be run through the computer system.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 32)

Vessel Courier System
Model: Swift 78B Vessel Courier System
Type: Vessel Data Courier System
Cost: 5,000 for systems, 20,000 for operation
Cyber Points: 2
Game Notes: Vessel system can carry 8D of information. Vessel courier may not read the data or interact with it in any way. Virus protection package can be uploaded for 50 credits. After beating computer programming difficulty, takes one minute per die of information to upload. 8D may be downloaded in one minute.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 30)

Cyborg/Droid Interface
Model: Neuro-Saav Cyborg/Droid Interface
Type: Cyborg/droid interface
Cost: Normally included with cyborg construct, 600 if installed separately
Cyber Points: 0
Game Notes: Cyborg/Droid interface makes all droid programming rolls one difficulty level easier. Use the computer programming difficulties listed on page 63 of the Rulebook if the cyborg is trying to learn something the droid does not want to share, although the difficulty is one level easier. Interface is standard on most cyborg implants.
Source: Cracken’s Rebel Field Guide (page 33)


Personally there seems no ryhme or reason for how the cyber points are awarded. I mean if a set number of cyber points were awarded because something could be helpful in combat I could see that. But look at the Vessel Couirer System. All a vessel is is a person whose got an implant in their head for carrying information, kinda like the idea of some guy handcuffed to a briefcase with top secert codes in the briefcase if you ask me. All their doing is carrying information or codes from one place to another. But the VCS has exactly the same number of cyber points as Tiny's Hammer. Why?

Is there a way we can possibly figure out why some cybernetics have more cyber points than others. If you look in Gry's Equipment Stats, not all the cybernetics have cyber points. Of course not all come from Cracken's Rebel Field Guide either. But what if Rownn or Orrallyn loose a hand and Ankhanu or Orgaloth decide that instead of taking the BioTech Repli-Limb Prosthetic hand which costs 1,000 credits and incurs 1 cyber point they then take a 2,000 credit cybernetic hand which grants +1 to their Strength with that hand while incuring -1D to the Dexterity with that hand. Sure, the hand's supposed to be less dexterous and a little stronger, but there's no pesky cyber points to interfer with using the Force or to earn DSPs from.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhanu wrote:
I doubt it would have any effect on a lightsaber blade, which has no mass, and is therefore not influenced by gravity.


I'd debate this, my mind has rationalized a combination of HCs 0 range blaster analogy and Ank's pulsing cone of repulsor force to form a mental picture of something akin to a shaped charge.

I've always thought that anyone could safely parry a lightsaber with anything provided they used the right technique (parry the hilt/weilder's hands or arms, stopping the blow from connecting rather than just parrying the blade)

I'd assume it'd be easier to parry the hilt/hands with a shaped charge that didn't require contact than with a physical weapon. It's still be difficult, but possible if you were aware of how lightsabers worked.

Hellcat wrote:
Ok, what about cyber points? I understand how they work, but before this thread was started we were discussing somewhat their issuance. Esoomian had said that putting two cyber points into the repulsor hand made sense since it was weaponized, but I'd countered that the neuro-shock hand only had one cyber point and yet it was also a weapon. Their the only cybernetics in Cracken's Rebel Field Guide that are more strictly speaking weapons, though there are others that could be used in combat to give an edge to their owners.


Insofar as I can see the cybernetics that are worth more than one cyber point seem to either:

Be excessively brutal (Repulse hand)

Grant accross the board boosts to stats (Cardio-Muscular, RiMPack, Motion Interface & Hifold)

Hmmm I was going to say interface directly with the brain but the Cyborg/Computer Systems Data-Link seems to refute this.

Perhaps it's just another case of low internal consistancy.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Low internal consistency may be the case cause the description on the Vessel Courier System seems to suggest to me the person that becomes a vessel gets kinda a jump drive installed in their head to carry the info in. They can't access the data to read it. Yet it's 2 cyber points if you have it installed.

By contrast, if you're already a cyborg you can install a knowledge cartridge and incur 0 cyber points while being able to instantly gain skills at 3D, 5D, or 6D in either Knowledge or Technical. Now let's say you decide you want to become a master tactician or your in the heat of battle and somehow get lucky to find a knowledge cartridge that offers 6D in tactics and you've only got 2D in Knowledge. As a cyborg with the AJ^6 you're already getting a bonus of 1D to any Knowledge or Technical skill. Now you're adding a cartridge that instantly gives you 6D in tactics, forget having to learn it at +1 pip above your Knowledge attribute, your a tactical genius in a round or two. Now you and your team has a advantage in the battle since you're more likely to figure out tactics that could help your team win (though they may not). Or maybe you get a knowledge cartridge with 6D in demolitions. Now you're got the ability to disarm explosives more succesfully or set them up for a specific effect in combat (like what we discussed with the avalanche and such).

There not exactly combat skills themselves but they can be used in combat to potentially turn things your way. Yet no cyber points are incured merely because they give the cyborg character access to knowledge they might not normally have. Though the good thing is that they replace the users own skills, meaning you could have 4D in explosives and accidentally plug in a Explosives 3D knowledge cartridge, suddenly becoming less capable. But the point is how fair is it that a cyborg can master skills in these two areas that quickly and not gain another cyber point in doing so?

Most folks have to spend potentially precious CPs to gain and upgrade Knowledge and Tactics skills and we don't always know when we'll get 'em back. A cyborg could either get lucky to stumble upon a cache of the knowledge cartridges (though they probably won't know right away what's on it or how much it will advance that skill by) or they can sell stuff and buy them if they know where to look. If they sell on the invisible market they might be able to get more for certain objects than they otherwise could. It could still take a whole adventure just to get enough credits to purchase a 6D knowledge cartridge and find a place to purchase it, but compared to the amount of time it would take to go from 3D to 6D in a particular skill it could be worth it.

Advancing that quickly doesn't seem fair without a cyber point being earned.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cracken's is a 1st ed. book, let's not forget... there probably wasn't any real rhyme or reason in how cyber points were assigned Razz Trying to figure out what that rhyme or reason is is ultimately going to end in frustration. The only thing we can do is leave them as they are, or rewrite the entries to conform to some arbitrary code of our devise.

If this is the case, that we want to re-write the cyber point values of various cybernetics and devise a system for the differing levels of value, I suggest we quite quickly move this discussion out of this game forum and into the greater Rancor Pit community (like we did with the Combined Force Power, Concentration mechanics, Yuuzhan Vong vs. Lightsaber Combat). Chances are a more robust and acceptable system will develop that way.


Esoomian wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
I doubt it would have any effect on a lightsaber blade, which has no mass, and is therefore not influenced by gravity.


I'd debate this, my mind has rationalized a combination of HCs 0 range blaster analogy and Ank's pulsing cone of repulsor force to form a mental picture of something akin to a shaped charge.

I've always thought that anyone could safely parry a lightsaber with anything provided they used the right technique (parry the hilt/weilder's hands or arms, stopping the blow from connecting rather than just parrying the blade)

I'd assume it'd be easier to parry the hilt/hands with a shaped charge that didn't require contact than with a physical weapon. It's still be difficult, but possible if you were aware of how lightsabers worked.


Again, my comment specifically stated lightsaber blade. A lightsaber can be parried with Melee Parry or Brawling Parry for exactly the reasons you state. In that sense, yeah, the Repulse Hand can be used to parry a lightsaber attack... but not the blade itself.

The issue from a tactical point of view here is the same as parrying a sword without a weapon (I have some experience in this area, oddly enough), or a short weapon; the lightsaber has the advantage of reach (and the ability to sever through whatever encounters the blade, weapon or hand alike). In order to parry the lightsaber (or sword) bearer's hilt/arm, one must perform a fairly dangerous manoeuvre to get inside the weapon's zone of effectiveness; in essence, get right up in his grill, as it were. Lightsabers differ from swords in that the entire length of the blade is (just about) equally effective at damaging, whereas swords are most effective nearing the tip. This greatly increases the zone of effectiveness in towards the wielder's body, making it harder to get into a safe zone through the danger zone. While it's possible to get in and deflect/attack the arm of the wielder with a parry, it shouldn't be easy.
In game terms, this can comes in the form of modifiers to the attack or against the defense (though by my experience most GMs don't apply these modifiers, and I often do not myself).

The repulse hand would behave similarly to a lightsaber blade when used to parry in this fashion, however. Just as a lightsaber is likely to sever a blocking weapon or limb, if you could parry a hilt or arm with the repulse hand, chances are that weapon/limb is going to take the damage of the repulsor field.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhanu wrote:
Cracken's is a 1st ed. book, let's not forget... there probably wasn't any real rhyme or reason in how cyber points were assigned Razz Trying to figure out what that rhyme or reason is is ultimately going to end in frustration. The only thing we can do is leave them as they are, or rewrite the entries to conform to some arbitrary code of our devise.

If this is the case, that we want to re-write the cyber point values of various cybernetics and devise a system for the differing levels of value, I suggest we quite quickly move this discussion out of this game forum and into the greater Rancor Pit community (like we did with the Combined Force Power, Concentration mechanics, Yuuzhan Vong vs. Lightsaber Combat). Chances are a more robust and acceptable system will develop that way.


That makes sense, for all we know someone may have already created one.

Ankhanu wrote:
Again, my comment specifically stated lightsaber blade. A lightsaber can be parried with Melee Parry or Brawling Parry for exactly the reasons you state. In that sense, yeah, the Repulse Hand can be used to parry a lightsaber attack... but not the blade itself.


You did indeed, and I quoted you in reply as well. That's somewhat embarrasing. I should probably stop late night posting. I agree with your assesment (and am somewhat curious about your experience) I'd probably rule that to safely parry a lightsaber you'd have to beat the attack roll by 10 or something. The lightsaber weilded would likely take damage if the defence roll succeeded but I generally wouldn't worry about the lightsaber, those things seem to be nigh invulnerable.
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