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Average Life Expectancy of your Players Characters?
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tetsuoh
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Average Life Expectancy of your Players Characters? Reply with quote

I just realized before quitting our current game that my character had technically died every session. I was often brought back either through Transfer Force or GM intervention of Uber Force NPCs - but I had had enough.

But I got to wondering, what is the average life expectancy normally for the characters in your campaigns?

I know combat is often deadly in star wars and I was wondering how most characters and gms work with that issue.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say that mortality has dropped in my campaigns lately. Perhaps Im going soft at old age. I have never had one character die every session though, perhaps a one or two each campaign. However, if the PCs are stupid Im remorseless.
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Critias
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With character points and Force points at your disposal, and given how your average PC stacks up to your average NPC...I have to ask...what kept happening?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I got to wondering, what is the average life expectancy normally for the characters in your campaigns?
I know combat is often deadly in star wars and I was wondering how most characters and gms work with that issue.


I've never had a character die in any one of my campaigns. I roll dice behind a screen, so even when they get dead damage dice, I usually tone it back to incapacitated, or mortally wounded, and maim them in some fashion. Just like Luke! Wink

To be perfectly honest, I've never had a character who legitimately should die. I've had characters in the past when I was a greener GM that got very frustrated when their character had their genitalia shot by a random happening of the body die. (I use a d12; added in upper and lower arm, stomach and groin along with upper/lower leg) So, what I learned early on, is flubbing a roll now and again to keep it fun for the players is really no skin off my nose. Because a few of my players have taken turns running for me, they've witnessed that I tend to roll well, so in most combat situations, they're afraid for their characters lives. Even with the smallest, most insignificant mooks. (Fixed this problem by eliminating wild die for non-named NPCs.)

The other combat modifier I was going to do to make mook combat a little more fun is to reduce the number of wound levels. So, your average storm trooper has 2-3 levels: 1-4 Wounded, 5-9Incapacitated, 10+ Dead. This places the proper challenge in the hands of major NPCs.

As a GM, when I notice that my NPC mooks that are totally unimportant to the story are slapping the poop out of my heroes, I tone them back a little bit, give them penalties for firing into melee, or have random stuff happen to them.

The problem is, when your players are watching the story instead of living the story, you're failing as a storyteller. If too much responsibility is placed in the hands of some awesome Jedi, why are you there? Why not send the epic Jedi in the first place if the hero can't take care of it on their own, or in their group? If your story is too grandiose for your players, then you should be rolling dice in a dark room all by yourself. You play with the players, not against them.

Although, I've been called a soft GM in other posts on the pit. So I suppose you'd have to take my opinion with a grain of salt. My players are happy and want to play, and I'm happy because the story progresses.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every gm i have playe under, who did as you do Raven, has made me want to stop gaming. the 3 main reasons for that are
A) it was easy to tell they were not going to kill/let us die, so there was never any challenge
B) it felt like we were parts in HIS book. Rather than characters writing our own.
C) As 2 others besides myself caught him doing this and he lied, it made me wonder what else he was lying about... no trust in an impartial gm, then that gm has lost his gamers...

WELL to me.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Death in our campaigns is a rare event. We go for dense narratives and villains with hidden agenda, and keep the door open for interplayer suspicion, so survival often seems less implausible than agreeing to let some stranger who "just happened" to wander up after a teammate dies to take his place.

I suspect age plays some part in attitudes toward PC death. I'm the oldest player in our group, though empathy plays a bigger part. When I started, adventures as an extended gamble of life against loot was the ONLY way to play any RPG. I'm the cruelest of GMs in our group, and the most willing of players to see my own PC die--in large part, I think, because death was for so long the sole measure of risk in the risk-reward calculation of RPGs.

(Garkhal seems still to subscribe to this approach of treating the RPG as a game to be won or lost, rather than narrative art: death as the measure of challenge, death as proof of free will. ZzaphodD seems to, as well, though I would suggest he isn't "going soft" so much as drifting from game-as-game to game-as-story.)

Even so, I try to avoid PC death. Replacement can be such a hassle. My current campaign, a low fantasy conspiracy game, is coming to a close. I asked my players to create 2-4 PCs apiece and rotate the characters in and out of play. (They each made two.) I did this for many reasons, but the biggest was to permit the Evil Conspiracy to kill PCs, demonstrate its power and ruthlessness, and so maintain a greater sense of risk. I killed three PCs in a year and a half: one dimwit who decided pointlessly to join a riot, and two explorers who pushed their luck too far in a taboo ruin. It did the job: the players fear death, even though the Evil Conspiracy didn't deliver any. But in the final two months of the campaign, the PCs have developed plot immunity, apart from a deliberate and dramatic sacrifice. (I don't know how many of my players realize this, but at least one does: I told her so flat-out as part of ongoing advice for running her first campaign.) Half the PCs are trapped far from the action, and I have no desire to stitch together a conclusion after accident or folly wipes out the remainder. I killed no PCs in my previous two campaigns, a light-hearted Mage campaign featuring teenagers stranded in the corn belt and a steampunk/horror campaign wherein I was the primary GM but we rotated the GM seat as the PCs visited several different worlds. Well, I killed my own character in the last session, but that doesn't count.

You can take PC immunity too far, even for narrative convenience. None of my fellow gamers has ever killed a PC since we started, though this may largely be the result of staging few combats. Only once did I feel cheated by this. Dave, our resident softie, refused to tell me how much damage I'd taken from a hunting rifle in the steampunk/horror campaign until he knew how many hit points I had left. I refused--"It shouldn't matter!"--and he clearly fudged the result. Very dissatisfying, when Janos's abrupt and bloody death could have heightened everyone's emotional involvement, and given that I was clearly prepared to see it happen.
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Ankhanu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a nasty tendency with the dice; as a player, I roll really low... as a GM I roll really high.

This results in my characters messing up a lot and occasionally dying... this has also resulted in TPK due to 3-5 stormtroopers.

When I'm running a game, I will do as Raven does to some degree; I'll roll back my damage rolls so that players don't die... though I'm also not afraid to kill a player if they get to that point via stupidity, especially if they've been well warned ahead of time. I also have a limit to how often I'll save players from good rolls before they expire... but that's a subjective move.
In an average campaign I'll lose 2-4 characters this way, I suppose. If I just let the dice land as they did I'd lose MANY more. If characters lose too many characters they don't invest any personal energy into the character, they just become stats and not a character; it's a balancing act between allowing players to maintain their characters and maintaining a sense of danger/mortality. It's a fine line to walk.

As a player, it's a little more random as to how often I might die Razz I've had some characters for years (my current Pathfinder character has been going for a year and a half now with 2 near death experiences), and others that were lost within a session or two Razz
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I generally don't kill PC's unless they tell me they want to die. They don't often use words but I'm pretty slick and I can tell by their actions that they want to die.

For instance, if they sacrifice themselves for the rest of the group. Like by jumping on a grenade

Refusing an opportunity to surrender against an exponentially larger force.

Bad tactics. Like taking on a squad of Stormtroopers by yourself. Or a Squadron of TIE fighters.

I'm not saying you're gauranteed to die, or that I fudge die rolls, but I balance encounters fairly well. If you don't know to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds, well, you'll learn.
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tetsuoh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Critias wrote:
With character points and Force points at your disposal, and given how your average PC stacks up to your average NPC...I have to ask...what kept happening?


And I usually spent everything I had been awarded previously to stay alive in the current session.

Basically this - I have never owned a set of dice that "liked" me, as such my best set (which I was using this campaign) roll rather average. Our GM used his good dice and every npc had wild dice. To top it off we started the game being wanted by the empire and every npc had above average stats.

Examples of how sessions went for my character:

My char was an ex stormtrooper who hates junkies - he knew the crew needed money and has a grudge agaisn't the local drug cartel (we were in my chars "hometown") so I went and found a normal human flunky deathstick dealer. I walked up to make a purchase and quick drew my blaster under his chin, demanding his take. A fight broke out and I shot him in the face. He rolled 4D (his strength) and soaked the 4d of blaster pistol. The fight lasted for over 12 rounds to the point where corsec was heard in the background, so the dealer dropped his bag and ran, I hit the floor and passed out due to my wounds. He wasn't wearing any armor and I shot him in the face well over 12 times. I had been wearing a blast vest and he had punched me to mortally wounded.

We find a world with an unscannable surface to use as a hideout from imperial search parties. We find a base that's been ruined but has a working shield and gun turrets that could either be sold or modified for our ship. while taking them off the shield drops and my character gets tail swiped by an invisible huge saber toothed snake. The snake's damage crumbles the chestplate of my spiffy new ubese armor and crushes my chest. One attack - Mortally wounded. Surprise attack, I had no chance.

My character has been trying to find a set of armor this entire campaign and knows of a few places to look but knows someone who has far more than what hes after - an old military dog like my own character, who's a drunkard. I pay him a visit at the local cantina - pay to get him utterly gilled - and offer to help walk him home. He remembers I was looking for this armor before and re offers to let me have a look at his collection. right after letting me in, the dude throws up and passes out. Excellent, I respected him and didn't want to have to kill him, I carry the old geezer to his bed, then head down to rob him blind. I roll a 42 on security and bypass the lock on the transparasteel case with the first set of armor. Only for security covers to drop on all cases and the room to start to flood with gas. I, having had enough - telekinesis the security plates off and grab both types of armor I had been looking for and go to make a break for it. The old man is awake with a blaster in hand, throws up, looks at me and opens fire. I proceed to get into a fight with him for two hours IRL as I tk him into walls and the ceiling over and over trying to knock him out. Finally wounded the old man pulls a thermal detonator and chucks it at me (in an enclosed space) "if I can't have them neither can you" - I TK it back at him "it reaches halfway back and blows" he ends up incapped - I end up dead - turns out the old man is cyberized 5d strength and runs around wearing mandolorian armor under his closes like a set of footie pajamas.

I end up saved by our mysterious jedi benefactors in the rebellion. They repair the armor I stole and warn me "we'll let you keep your trinkets, we even fixed them, but I must advise you not to continue this path your on." they radio the other players to come get me. Halfway off the rock our security droid sets off the ship alarms, the crate I brought on board is emitting a beacon signal and imperials are closing in. We are forced to land. we walk off to see the old man with his armor on the outside this time and wearing the helmet (guess he didn't like me cracking his head into ceiling who knows how many times even though he soaked it every time). Demanding I return his property. I take two steps forward, my friends right behind me "Come now old man, we had this already worked out, don't you remember last night?" 62 on Con, remember he was so drunk he had passed out before the horrible events that followed. Fail, He opens fire with a slugthrower. The Jedi apprentice right beside me blocks with a lightsaber but misses the next shot. 30+ damage = Dead, Gm looks at me "Aren't you wearing the armor???" "After I just got told there's security bugs on it????" I sit and watch what happens for a while. The other two manage to kill the 4 stormtroopers and the old man but the docking bay hits our ship three times with EMPs in the meantime. The jedi manages to telekinesis the ship into orbit (she blew like 20 character points trying to save us that she had been saving to up her dex stat). Ship was dead in the water with all but life support and lighting blown and Imperials were bearing down on us. The jedi uses Transfer Force on me. GM asks if the spirit of my character is willing to come back. "Don't even worry about it"
*Closed my notebook, grabbed my bag and my pop, and left.*

And those are just the major times during the campaign, I died my dumb stuff all the time. Like the first sessions ambush of 6 gammorreans with a mounted gun while we were on foot, because we went to the bad side of town, which had never been stated while we were walking.


I didn't want to place the blame on the GM until I saw all your responses...
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Critias
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, with some of those examples, it's certainly got more to do with the GM than with the system/setting, in my book. Some of his antics are...well...kind of a stretch, with some of the rolls you mention it sounds like he's willing to ignore the rules when he wants, period.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

42 on a security roll and it failed?

A 42 is godly on a dice roll. Well, demi-godly. That's an 12D average. 12D is one of the best in the galaxy. Or is it a Sector? Either way it's 11 over 31, which is Heroic.

You need to sit down with your GM outside of the game and work this out.

Or find a new GM.
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Critias
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
42 on a security roll and it failed?

A 42 is godly on a dice roll. Well, demi-godly. That's an 12D average. 12D is one of the best in the galaxy. Or is it a Sector? Either way it's 11 over 31, which is Heroic.

You need to sit down with your GM outside of the game and work this out.

Or find a new GM.

Don't forget the 62 on a Con roll (against someone who'd been passing out drunk during the time period in question, or, in fact, someone being passing out drunk and fighting at full ability in the first danged place).
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tetsuoh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were no rolls for if I beat the security system really. The security panels and gas just plain happened.

The 42 Security told me after looking through the room and starting on the keypad. "There's no cameras in here, hes sure of his setup. There's no prints on the keypad, the gloves he uses are still sitting on the workbench even. You can more than likely Telekinesis the lock open if your gentle enough." So I Telekinesis the lock and spend character points to make sure it works (50 something total I think - I dropped 5 Character points is all I know.) The lock popped open, then an Alarm sounds and the security panels went to slide down. I Dropped more dice and Telekinesis the Security doors over the two sets I'm after at once. Suddenly I start hearing the gas poor through vents I never noticed on my 42 Security roll. Drop more dice to TK the other armor's case open - brute force this time. Then dropped even more and brute force TK the room door open to see the man leaning on a dresser ready to shoot me.

The con roll, all I remember is he "barely" beat me. I was already to peeved from the 2 hours I spent fighting a drunk old man only to find out the imperials were after us again because he called them in with transceiver beacon codes that were hidden in the both sets of armor.


Last edited by tetsuoh on Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Every gm i have playe under, who did as you do Raven, has made me want to stop gaming. the 3 main reasons for that are
A) it was easy to tell they were not going to kill/let us die, so there was never any challenge


*writes down in his notebook, "If I ever run for garhkal, make sure to kill him in the first 10 minutes to display the challenge of my game."*

Quote:

B) it felt like we were parts in HIS book. Rather than characters writing our own.


Quote:

The problem is, when your players are watching the story instead of living the story, you're failing as a storyteller. If too much responsibility is placed in the hands of some awesome Jedi, why are you there? Why not send the epic Jedi in the first place if the hero can't take care of it on their own, or in their group? If your story is too grandiose for your players, then you should be rolling dice in a dark room all by yourself. You play with the players, not against them.


I believe the point I was trying to make was that GMs shouldn't run the story via NPCs, I was not using it as an example of a game I run. The characters are the story pure and simple.

Quote:

C) As 2 others besides myself caught him doing this and he lied, it made me wonder what else he was lying about... no trust in an impartial gm, then that gm has lost his gamers...


Quote:
So, what I learned early on, is flubbing a roll now and again to keep it fun for the players is really no skin off my nose.


A roll now and again, not every roll. And if I was caught and the player was upset. Let him die, I don't care. I believe you misinterpreted what I was saying from "I don't go after my players, trying kill them." to "I don't kill my players." Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it won't. So many of my players character points are being spent on soak, it'd be hard to kill them without having the NPCs blow character points on damage, which I don't think is fair.

I think that the game masters you've had gar are not particularly good at slicing their rolls, not to mention the fact, that players shouldn't be looking behind the screen anyway, seating is usually arranged to make that a little more difficult, and if I did have players that were incapable of resisting the urge to just have a little peek at my dice, I'd rotate the table to keep them away from the screen.

Quote:
You can take PC immunity too far, even for narrative convenience.


I couldn't agree with you more Lake. My players aren't immune. But I'd never have an NPC of mine kill the players with no chance of survival. I'm reminded of a time that a group of Jedi players were chasing after a Storm Commando, who was in a sense, right hand man to the "main" villain. After having a run in with the group that he barely survived, he became a much more cautious man, and proceeded to rig explosives to cover his escape route in case of emergency. Jedi chased after him, he detonated, 3/4 of the party were incapacitated, and one was wounded, dropping lightsaber combat. I wouldn't have had the commando shoot the downed players, even though it would have been easier to get rid of them then and there. He got on his ship and escaped.

I suppose in the end, I've been blessed by not having incredibly stupid players, I left most of those when I quit D&D.

Quote:
Examples of how sessions went for my character:

My char was an ex stormtrooper who hates junkies - he knew the crew needed money and has a grudge agaisn't the local drug cartel (we were in my chars "hometown") so I went and found a normal human flunky deathstick dealer. I walked up to make a purchase and quick drew my blaster under his chin, demanding his take. A fight broke out and I shot him in the face. He rolled 4D (his strength) and soaked the 4d of blaster pistol. The fight lasted for over 12 rounds to the point where corsec was heard in the background, so the dealer dropped his bag and ran, I hit the floor and passed out due to my wounds. He wasn't wearing any armor and I shot him in the face well over 12 times. I had been wearing a blast vest and he had punched me to mortally wounded.

We find a world with an unscannable surface to use as a hideout from imperial search parties. We find a base that's been ruined but has a working shield and gun turrets that could either be sold or modified for our ship. while taking them off the shield drops and my character gets tail swiped by an invisible huge saber toothed snake. The snake's damage crumbles the chestplate of my spiffy new ubese armor and crushes my chest. One attack - Mortally wounded. Surprise attack, I had no chance.

My character has been trying to find a set of armor this entire campaign and knows of a few places to look but knows someone who has far more than what hes after - an old military dog like my own character, who's a drunkard. I pay him a visit at the local cantina - pay to get him utterly gilled - and offer to help walk him home. He remembers I was looking for this armor before and re offers to let me have a look at his collection. right after letting me in, the dude throws up and passes out. Excellent, I respected him and didn't want to have to kill him, I carry the old geezer to his bed, then head down to rob him blind. I roll a 42 on security and bypass the lock on the transparasteel case with the first set of armor. Only for security covers to drop on all cases and the room to start to flood with gas. I, having had enough - telekinesis the security plates off and grab both types of armor I had been looking for and go to make a break for it. The old man is awake with a blaster in hand, throws up, looks at me and opens fire. I proceed to get into a fight with him for two hours IRL as I tk him into walls and the ceiling over and over trying to knock him out. Finally wounded the old man pulls a thermal detonator and chucks it at me (in an enclosed space) "if I can't have them neither can you" - I TK it back at him "it reaches halfway back and blows" he ends up incapped - I end up dead - turns out the old man is cyberized 5d strength and runs around wearing mandolorian armor under his closes like a set of footie pajamas.

I end up saved by our mysterious jedi benefactors in the rebellion. They repair the armor I stole and warn me "we'll let you keep your trinkets, we even fixed them, but I must advise you not to continue this path your on." they radio the other players to come get me. Halfway off the rock our security droid sets off the ship alarms, the crate I brought on board is emitting a beacon signal and imperials are closing in. We are forced to land. we walk off to see the old man with his armor on the outside this time and wearing the helmet (guess he didn't like me cracking his head into ceiling who knows how many times even though he soaked it every time). Demanding I return his property. I take two steps forward, my friends right behind me "Come now old man, we had this already worked out, don't you remember last night?" 62 on Con, remember he was so drunk he had passed out before the horrible events that followed. Fail, He opens fire with a slugthrower. The Jedi apprentice right beside me blocks with a lightsaber but misses the next shot. 30+ damage = Dead, Gm looks at me "Aren't you wearing the armor???" "After I just got told there's security bugs on it????" I sit and watch what happens for a while. The other two manage to kill the 4 stormtroopers and the old man but the docking bay hits our ship three times with EMPs in the meantime. The jedi manages to telekinesis the ship into orbit (she blew like 20 character points trying to save us that she had been saving to up her dex stat). Ship was dead in the water with all but life support and lighting blown and Imperials were bearing down on us. The jedi uses Transfer Force on me. GM asks if the spirit of my character is willing to come back. "Don't even worry about it"
*Closed my notebook, grabbed my bag and my pop, and left.*

And those are just the major times during the campaign, I died my dumb stuff all the time. Like the first sessions ambush of 6 gammorreans with a mounted gun while we were on foot, because we went to the bad side of town, which had never been stated while we were walking.


I'm sorry for you having to go through situations like that, it seems to me, the person running your games had some serious problems with encounter balancing, and some general storytelling issues. Just let it be known, that not every GM out there is like that, and usually they grow out of it.
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tetsuoh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other two players quit his campaign after I left and evidently let him have it for me, telling him what they thought and how they knew that I wasn't having fun for weeks now and that he wasn't being fair to my character especially, in not so nice a choice of words.

And since the person in question is already 27 I wondering as to his growing out of it. According to one of the other two players his games has always been that way, just he never had picked on a character so badly before.

I can't say I hadn't seen it coming, but we have had severe problems finding more players/GMs in our area, so I was trying to make it work.
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