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Raven Redstar
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 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been considering dropping damage for standard punches and kicks to Strength + 2 and Strength +1D+2 respectively. Making a trained kick hit only slightly harder than someone wielding a club or something, and a punch less damage than said club. |
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I've been considering dropping damage for standard punches and kicks to Strength + 2 and Strength +1D+2 respectively. Making a trained kick hit only slightly harder than someone wielding a club or something, and a punch less damage than said club. |
Makes sense to me. It has always seemed odd to me that no weapon attacks would do more damage than attacks with a weapon.
We have house ruled that brawling attacks do extra damage of +1 point per 1D of brawling above the attribute (3D+1 strength character with 4D+1 brawl attack does 3D+1+1=3D+2 damage and once brawl reaches 5D+1 damage would increase to 4D).
We also have a couple of PCs with martial arts using the advanced skill rules with dice pool described above by Esoomian.
I can't say I am happy with any of the solutions I've seen or used. One possible fix might be to treat damage from brawling as stun only damage. So then the threat of a knife is that the damage is lethal rather than only stun.
Systems should reflect the real world fact that humans developed weapons for a reason. If hands and feet were really better than stones, clubs, and blades...well you get the point. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | I've been considering dropping damage for standard punches and kicks to Strength + 2 and Strength +1D+2 respectively. Making a trained kick hit only slightly harder than someone wielding a club or something, and a punch less damage than said club. |
A kick then deals the same damage as a vibro bayonet.... 
This kind of highlights the problem with MA in RPGs.
Id start hand to hand combat at -1D damage, and then increase it from there depending on skill. Also, given the nature of the damage system, just increasing the damage of an attack by +1 to +2 represents a large increase in damage potential.
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Raven Redstar
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| You could use the Open D6 system's answer, and make strength damage half your strength or lifting, whichever is higher. Then keep martial arts as it is. Or make it so only unarmed damage is halved. But then have the various specializations have increases for various techniques. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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For me, punches without MA do just str damage. Having generic martial arts, they do str+1d. Kicks do Str+1 without, Str+1d+2 with..
As a side thought.. has anyone thought of limiting Brawl attacks like melee attacks are capped out at a certain level? As it stands, a wookie could theoretically dole out 12d character scale damage (which equates to 8d walker scale) when beserk and on a force point...
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | You could use the Open D6 system's answer, and make strength damage half your strength or lifting, whichever is higher. Then keep martial arts as it is. Or make it so only unarmed damage is halved. But then have the various specializations have increases for various techniques. |
I dont really follow you. So base damage is half STR + weapon modifiers then?
That would make a good start for those extremely unrealistic damage levels for hth combat. It would also put more focus on the weapon than the user as it is today. I guess it would mean that D6 has higher modifiers on the weapons instead?
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Weapon damages are as follows: Half of Strength or Lifting skill, whichever is higher plus:
Awl, ice pick, household scissors, pocket knife, screwdriver, stake: +2
Arrow, crossbow bolt, dart (as melee): +1
Axe (Large: Longer than 60cm): +3D
Ball and chain: +2D
Baton, night stick, fire iron: +1D+1
Blackjack: +2
Brass Knuckles: +1D+1
Bull Whip: +1D
Club, Baseball bat, large stick, walking stick: +1D+1
Hatchet: +1D+1
Hedge Clippers, Garden shears: +1D
Katana: +3D
Knife (Survival, Large Kitchen), Dagger, bayonet: +1D
Mace: +1D+1
Machete: +1D+2
Nunchaku: +1D+2
Rapier: +2D
Hammer: +1D
Broadsword: +2D+2
Short Sword: +1D+2
Two Handed Sword: +3D+1
Now, these are standard, low tech weapons.
D6 Space adds in:
Energized Broadsword: +4D
And, you round up with Strength or Lifting, so 5D gets rounded up to 3D Strength Damage. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | And, you round up with Strength or Lifting, so 5D gets rounded up to 3D Strength Damage. |
Ok, so weapon damage is about STR/2 + (SW weapon modifier +1D) approximately? A Force Pike would then have a damage code of +3D meaning STR/2+3D?
When you round down, do you only round down to even D:s?
I think I would do as usual when dividing dice, convert them into pips, divide, and then convert back into dice.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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You only do even dice is my understanding, and never round down for the strength damage stat.
They also have rules for breaking limbs and dislocating sockets. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:20 am Post subject: |
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What about things like choke holds or other UFC style locks?
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Grab: The attacker physically grasps a target. Few melee weapons allow his option, so it is used generally only in brawling attacks. What effect this has on the target depends on the type of grab. (The ones listed here are choke, flip, hold, slam/throw, and arm pin.) See the escape rules in this chapter for details on getting out of grabs. On subsequent rounds of a grab, attackers who defeat an escape attempt or against a defender who chooses not to resist may do their Strength Damage only (no modifiers except those from Special Abilities or equipment). Some grab variations may offer other options.
Choke: Ropes and hands can cut off the target’s source of air. Damage
on the first round equals the character’s Strength Damage plus any modifiers. See the general grab rules for damage on subsequent rounds.
Flip: The character reaches out, grabs his opponent’s wrist, arm, leg, or similar body part, and jerks violently, causing the opponent to fall to the ground. The opponent takes 3D in damage from slamming into the ground and must spend the next round getting to her feet (if she can).
Hold: The character does less damage (-3D or more, at the player’s option, to the damage total), but she has hold of the target with a successful attack.
Slam/Throw: The character grabs or picks up his opponent and hurls him into the ground, a wall, a bus, or another obstacle. Lifting the opponent counts as an action (using the lifting skill), as does slamming or throwing the target (which uses the throwing skill). The character must be strong enough to pick his opponent up to use this maneuver. Once slammed into an object, the target takes the damage score of the object (usually determined by its Toughness, but the game master may adjust this) plus the attacker’s Strength Damage. The object being slammed into takes the Strength Damage of the opponent.
Arm Pin: The hero grabs his target’s arm and forces it around behind her, pinning it there. After the first round, the player has three choices as to what his character can do. Each option counts as a separate action.
Option 1. The character does his Strength Damage only for each
round he has the arm pinned.
Option 2. The character tries to break the opponent’s arm. The attacker must make a successful Physique or lifting roll versus a breaking difficulty. If the opponent does not resist, the difficulty equals two times the target’s Physique or lifting die code plus the pips plus any relevant protection. Failing to beat the breaking difficulty in this case means the target takes damage as in option 1. If the target chooses to resist, she may make no other action in the round, but she may move her turn up. Instead, the player rolls her character’s Physique or lifting and adds 5 and any relevant protection to the total to generate the breaking difficulty. Failure by the attacker to beat the breaking difficulty in this case means that the target wrenches free and may freely take action on the next round.
Option 3. The character may attempt to force the target to the
ground while maintaining his hold on the arm. The attacker rolls his
brawling against a submission difficulty. If the opponent does not resist, the submission difficulty equals two times her Reflexes die code plus the pips. Failing to beat the breaking difficulty in this case means the target takes damage as in option 1. If the target chooses to resist, the opponent may make no other action in the round, though she may move her turn up. Instead, the player rolls her character’s Reflexes and adds 5 and any relevant modifiers to the total to generate the submission difficulty. Failure by the attacker to beat the difficulty in this case means that the target wrenches free and may freely take action on the next round. |
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | | I've been considering dropping damage for standard punches and kicks to Strength + 2 and Strength +1D+2 respectively. Making a trained kick hit only slightly harder than someone wielding a club or something, and a punch less damage than said club. |
A kick then deals the same damage as a vibro bayonet....
This kind of highlights the problem with MA in RPGs.
Id start hand to hand combat at -1D damage, and then increase it from there depending on skill. Also, given the nature of the damage system, just increasing the damage of an attack by +1 to +2 represents a large increase in damage potential. |
One thing you have to keep in mind, is a fist can do as much damage as a knife just in a different way.
A blade is going to cut, and pierce skin while a unarmed attack is going to cause blunt force trauma.
It isn't so much as in the movies where you see people trade blow after blow with each other. Most fights lets less then fifteen seconds, if that long. And there are a lot of cases of people going to court for manslaughter, because the person they punched fell and smashed their head. Resulting in their death.
When there are no pads, no protection, blunt trauma can be very deadly. Especially when it is directed towards vitals. The 'one shot punch' is usually how many fights start and finish. If it connects. Personally I believe the best way to handle this is just to GM it in a different way.
Say one of my players gets about the same damage as another that did for a vibro-blade. The victim of the blade would be sliced, bleeding, and other kind of wounds. While the victim of the blunt trauma would have probably broken bones, internal organ damage, etc. As in your hand isn't going to slice off hands.
The level of stunned, wounded would still apply as normal though. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Yup. Heck IRL in the US, once you hit black belt in ANY martial art style you are supposed to register with the FBI as a deadly weapon.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | One thing you have to keep in mind, is a fist can do as much damage as a knife just in a different way. |
Can, but generally won't.
It's simple physics. Weapons typically increase penetrating power (hence serious damage) by concentrating force in a smaller area (dagger/spear/bayonet point and sword/axe edge), by increasing leverage (ax or mace handle), or by increasing mass at point of impact (mace/axe head). Cutting weapons also cause additional trauma and blood loss. Moreover, a weapon is typically harder than flesh or bone so it won't (usually) break under the higher forces, whereas a hand or fingers used as a weapon might.
The fact that a Wookiee using a FP does *more* damage if he drops his weapon (due to damage CAPS) seems a bit of a flaw in the rules and absolutely silly from a real world perspective.
That being said, whether it needs fixing (and how best to fix it) depends a bit on what type of campaign is being played and how many very high strength characters are encountered. I dislike the 1/2 STR method in D6 Space both because it adds an additional calculation to what should be a simple mechanic and it decreases the effective number of STRs that can occur in the game, i.e. 3D, 3D+1, 3D+2, 4D, 4D+1, and 4D+2 STR all have a 2D damage bonus. I do like the fact that lift becomes a very useful skill since it controls damage done when above base. |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| There's a place on the new open D6 system for "Strength Damage" So, not much of an additional calculation. Not to mention, it gives a reason for character to increase their lifting which is generally a useless skill, since you can take half your lifting if it's higher than your base strength score. |
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