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Attributes & Skills
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
I started with removing the -1D Dex penalty for the armour. I have rule for training in, and customizing armour that will let you remove 1D of penalty for CPs and custmization costs. I assume that ST are so used to their armour that they suffer no penalty. I also have ST at 3D Dex, Per and Str. This is also a general rule where I have raised the number of attribute dice that average joe has to 15D.


Excellent idea. Rules of Engagement also offers some excellent ideas for enhancing Imperial units, and stormtroopers in particular.

ZzaphodD wrote:
Regarding your rule above, I quite like the way the current system lets characters with low skill dice raise their skills to a moderate level for reasonable CPs. However, if I would use the rule I would double the cost for raising skills. If you have +1D in the skill it costs 2 CPs to raise to +1D+1.

This means that for character with low attributes it will be more expensive than the RAW to reach high skill values (at 2D +3D skill it costs 6 CPs for a total skill level of 5D+1, compared to 5 in the RAW). For characters with high attributes it will be cheaper than the RAW to get high skills (at 4D +3D skill it costs 6 CPs for a total skill level of 7D, compared to 7 CPs in the RAW). But this seems to be in concensus with your general idea.


Your idea has merit as well. The only problem is that, when using a multiplying scale instead of arithmetic, the higher one progresses, the more ridiculously difficult it becomes for characters to advance. A character with a Blaster of 8D would require 16 CPs to advance, and the slope just gets even steeper the higher you climb. If the goal is to limit characters from developing their skills too far, then this would be the way to go. In the end, both are possible options, depending on what kind of campaign you want to run.
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
I started with removing the -1D Dex penalty for the armour. I have rule for training in, and customizing armour that will let you remove 1D of penalty for CPs and custmization costs. I assume that ST are so used to their armour that they suffer no penalty. I also have ST at 3D Dex, Per and Str. This is also a general rule where I have raised the number of attribute dice that average joe has to 15D.


Excellent idea. Rules of Engagement also offers some excellent ideas for enhancing Imperial units, and stormtroopers in particular.


I could never figure out whether the armor penalties were included in the stats as written for ST, but I like your revised stats better anyway.
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Lancil
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I’ve been kicking around this idea for a while let’s see what you guys think.
In my skill advancement model here during game play when a character uses a skill successfully then he puts a check by it. And at the end of the game (or when the gm deems it time to do so) the players will roll skill ups.
Using the example above with 3D Dexterity and 2D blaster to = 5D, the player rolls both the 2D skill die in blaster and the 3D attribute die in Dexterity, separately and compare the two. If the skill die roll is lower than the attribute die roll then the skill goes up by +1, if and when it does not roll lower it does not go up. This eliminates the need for end of game cp’s. Instead at the begging of the game night the gm doles out to the group “fate” dice (or what ever you want to call them) to be used like character points used to be to add to rolls in an “oh crap” situation.
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lancil wrote:
Well I’ve been kicking around this idea for a while let’s see what you guys think.
In my skill advancement model here during game play when a character uses a skill successfully then he puts a check by it. And at the end of the game (or when the gm deems it time to do so) the players will roll skill ups.


Your skill advancement model looks exactly like the one in MegaTraveller.

It's a good system but what happens to CP? I like players having to decide whether to save them for skills or burn them on die roll improvements, as it helps cut down further on skill bloat.

Also, I tended to find in MT that characters couldn't really improve other skills even where they wanted to. It adds "realism" but also punishes characters that have certain specific rolls (i.e. pilot, gunner, etc.).
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Lancil
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This eliminates the need for end of game cp’s. Instead at the begging of the game night the gm doles out to the group “fate” dice (or what ever you want to call them) to be used like character points used to be to add to rolls in an “oh crap” situation.


No cp bloat because there are no cp's Very Happy
And it's not punishment so much as incentive to not munchkin your skills at the begging and to try and be more useful during the game.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lancil wrote:
Well I’ve been kicking around this idea for a while let’s see what you guys think.
In my skill advancement model here during game play when a character uses a skill successfully then he puts a check by it. And at the end of the game (or when the gm deems it time to do so) the players will roll skill ups.


Is there any requirement that the skill be used in a needed situation, or can the characters while on ship, go into the cargo hold and play around, so they get as many 'tick marks' as they can?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lancil wrote:
Well I’ve been kicking around this idea for a while let’s see what you guys think.
In my skill advancement model here during game play when a character uses a skill successfully then he puts a check by it. And at the end of the game (or when the gm deems it time to do so) the players will roll skill ups.
Using the example above with 3D Dexterity and 2D blaster to = 5D, the player rolls both the 2D skill die in blaster and the 3D attribute die in Dexterity, separately and compare the two. If the skill die roll is lower than the attribute die roll then the skill goes up by +1, if and when it does not roll lower it does not go up. This eliminates the need for end of game cp’s. Instead at the begging of the game night the gm doles out to the group “fate” dice (or what ever you want to call them) to be used like character points used to be to add to rolls in an “oh crap” situation.


Maybe a combination of the two would work? Perhaps the player could keep track of how often a skill was used successfully during the course of gameplay, and if a skill succeeds enough times, they could receive a reduction in CP cost to increase a skill, reflecting the idea that a lot of practical use might reduce the need for training time between missions.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Barrataria
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Is there any requirement that the skill be used in a needed situation, or can the characters while on ship, go into the cargo hold and play around, so they get as many 'tick marks' as they can?


Either would work in MegaTraveller. That was also how one acquired new skills... try to fly the spaceship and see if it works! Very Happy
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

Maybe a combination of the two would work? Perhaps the player could keep track of how often a skill was used successfully during the course of gameplay, and if a skill succeeds enough times, they could receive a reduction in CP cost to increase a skill, reflecting the idea that a lot of practical use might reduce the need for training time between missions.


Why not go how they did 'learning a language'.. 10 rolls of diff or more gets you a language..
So for this way, say every 7 successful rolls OVER the diff by 15 or more, nets you a free CP for advancing that skill one pip. If you hit 30 or more over what was needed, you get 2 ticks. Hit say, 75 on a roll (NON fp enhanced) you get an auto pip if your skill dice is less than say 8d..
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
The only problem is that, when using a multiplying scale instead of arithmetic, the higher one progresses, the more ridiculously difficult it becomes for characters to advance. A character with a Blaster of 8D would require 16 CPs to advance, and the slope just gets even steeper the higher you climb.


Note that its not 8D in skill, but +8D, so the above character could have as much as 12D in skill if he is human. Also, if you do the actual math it costs 192 CPs to raise your skill from 4D to 12D+1 in the RAW and 184 to raise to +8D+1, so its actually cheaper.. The two systems actually meet at 13D/+9D at 216 CPs, after that 'my' system is more expensive. In my games that is not of any concerns as PCs probably never will be that powerful.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lancil wrote:
Well I’ve been kicking around this idea for a while let’s see what you guys think.
In my skill advancement model here during game play when a character uses a skill successfully then he puts a check by it. And at the end of the game (or when the gm deems it time to do so) the players will roll skill ups.
Using the example above with 3D Dexterity and 2D blaster to = 5D, the player rolls both the 2D skill die in blaster and the 3D attribute die in Dexterity, separately and compare the two. If the skill die roll is lower than the attribute die roll then the skill goes up by +1, if and when it does not roll lower it does not go up. This eliminates the need for end of game cp’s. Instead at the begging of the game night the gm doles out to the group “fate” dice (or what ever you want to call them) to be used like character points used to be to add to rolls in an “oh crap” situation.


Played with similar systems several times before. IMO the XP/CP/Etc method is more fun and leaves more freedom of character development for the players.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
Note that its not 8D in skill, but +8D, so the above character could have as much as 12D in skill if he is human. Also, if you do the actual math it costs 192 CPs to raise your skill from 4D to 12D+1 in the RAW and 184 to raise to +8D+1, so its actually cheaper.. The two systems actually meet at 13D/+9D at 216 CPs, after that 'my' system is more expensive. In my games that is not of any concerns as PCs probably never will be that powerful.


Good point.
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cunning_kindred
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've actually been using this rule in my games for years. It works very well. The only difference is that we make it cost 4x the D to increase a skill. You purchase +1 for 2 character points, +2 for another 2, 1D for another two (total six character points to get to 1D) and thereon after its 4x to increase the skill. This produces a progression very similar to the original system at first but seriously hampers progression beyond a a certain point. It does mean that people put up attributes more often but since this always requires training that makes for interesting roleplaying opportunities.

Someone also pointed out that the system begins to collapse when people's skills get too high (if you play for a long period). This system actually stops that happening until much later. You can still get better but the cost becomes extremely high once you've reached +4D skill or higher for example. We tend to get less specialists in terms of skills which works well in the Star Wars universe. I tend to make sure that everyone needs a little skill across the board as the adventures become more challenging.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cunning_kindred wrote:
I've actually been using this rule in my games for years. It works very well. The only difference is that we make it cost 4x the D to increase a skill. You purchase +1 for 2 character points, +2 for another 2, 1D for another two (total six character points to get to 1D) and thereon after its 4x to increase the skill. This produces a progression very similar to the original system at first but seriously hampers progression beyond a a certain point. It does mean that people put up attributes more often but since this always requires training that makes for interesting roleplaying opportunities.

Someone also pointed out that the system begins to collapse when people's skills get too high (if you play for a long period). This system actually stops that happening until much later. You can still get better but the cost becomes extremely high once you've reached +4D skill or higher for example. We tend to get less specialists in terms of skills which works well in the Star Wars universe. I tend to make sure that everyone needs a little skill across the board as the adventures become more challenging.


I'm glad to hear that the system works. I think I'm probably going to stick to my original idea, with Zaphod's variation of double dice cost, instead of quadruple. If nothing else, it'll certainly make some of those NPC's with major dice counts in dozens of skills a little easier to understand.

I think I may split the difference on Force skills, though. I'm revamping several of the existing Force powers so that they better fit the way they are described in the canon and official material, and as a result, some of those powers have become rather unbalanced. The best way to handle that would be to make said Force powers more expensive in CP cost. Perhaps, if we are using the skill dice number x2 for CP cost for regular skills, it could be ramped up to #D x 3 for Force skills...

I also have an idea for purchasing new skills or specializations, again factoring in the idea that persons with a higher base attribute will have an easier time learning. Currently, a new skill is learned by the character paying enough CP to raise the skill 1 pip above the attribute. With the proposed division between Attributes and Skills, this would no longer work, as a person with a high Attribute would pay more to learn a new skill than a person with a lower score in the same Attribute. Instead, the initial CP cost is equal to a set number (I'm thinking 8-10) minus the Attribute Dice number. By this example, with a base number of 8, a person with a 4D attribute would pay an initial cost of 4 CPs, while another person with a 2D attribute would pay an initial cost of 6 CPs. If the cost seems too high, we could lower the base number, and put a cap on the initial cost, that it could never be lower than 2 CPs.

EDIT:

I'm also considering how practical use might have an effect on training time. I think a character should get a bonus, either on training time or on CP cost, if they use the skill successfully and repeatedly over the course of the mission. i have some ideas, but I'd like to hear yours.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hows about on the force skills, do like the Dathomir wiches do, in each force power itself has to be raised on its own. Not just C/S/A.. So you want to be great at just alter mind, but not all other CSA powers, just raise that.
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