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Attributes & Skills
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Hows about on the force skills, do like the Dathomir wiches do, in each force power itself has to be raised on its own. Not just C/S/A.. So you want to be great at just alter mind, but not all other CSA powers, just raise that.


Because with the sheer number of Force powers available (there are actually more than there are skills), you would take forever to build them up. The other argument would be that all of these powers are ultimately smaller facets of the same Force, as opposed to skills, which are usually discrete knowledge subsets.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, do it in a combo way.

C/S/A as norm, with each skill being learned like a skill as is under an attribute..

So you could have John Jedi with
4d Control; Absorb/disapate energy 6d+2, Accelerate healing 8d,
5d+1 Sense; Danger sense 7d+1, combat mind 7d

and so on.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So, do it in a combo way.

C/S/A as norm, with each skill being learned like a skill as is under an attribute..

So you could have John Jedi with
4d Control; Absorb/disapate energy 6d+2, Accelerate healing 8d,
5d+1 Sense; Danger sense 7d+1, combat mind 7d

and so on.


That would actually scale the Jedi back even further. Essentially, this would give the Jedi the same number of CPs as a non-Force sensitive, but twice as many skills to divide them between. If I had to choose between this rule and the RAW, I'd go with the RAW. Also, if you're going to beat me over the head with the idea of balance in other threads, it isn't really fair to advocate unbalancing things the other direction by making the Jedi even weaker.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your trying to unbalance them into the strong side, i am pulling back the other way... hopefully we can get them met in the middle.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Your trying to unbalance them into the strong side, i am pulling back the other way... hopefully we can get them met in the middle.


Or we can accept that we each have diametrically opposed viewpoints with irreconcilable differences and go our separate ways. After all, why do we need to agree? You play your game and I'll play mine (and may the two never meet).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OI.. talk like that makes you seem to have common sense.. Not allowed these days Wink
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
OI.. talk like that makes you seem to have common sense.. Not allowed these days Wink


LMAO. I have seen way too many of these conversations go round and round and round and degenerate into shouting matches. Nobody wins, and both parties still think that they are right. And technically, they are. The game is designed to be flexible, so that anyone can game how they want to game, including you and me. I'm too old and tired to drag out a pointless fight just so that I can say that I won.
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hazardchris
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well-said.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Hows about on the force skills, do like the Dathomir wiches do, in each force power itself has to be raised on its own. Not just C/S/A.. So you want to be great at just alter mind, but not all other CSA powers, just raise that.


Because with the sheer number of Force powers available (there are actually more than there are skills), you would take forever to build them up. The other argument would be that all of these powers are ultimately smaller facets of the same Force, as opposed to skills, which are usually discrete knowledge subsets.


You should use the rules suggestion posted (for normal Abilities/Skills) that each force power (now skill) is not raised like normal skills, 4d, 4d+1, etc. Intead you go by how much the skill raises the total skill level above the attribute. For example. The Ability Sense 3D + the Skill Life Sense +2D for a total of 5D. The basis for rasing this skill would then be 2D instead of 5D. Also, raising the Force Abiliteis (ie Sense, Control, etc) could give you 'free' skill dice to be distributed among the Force Skills(Control Pain etc). Much like in the RAW, you get 'free' Force Powers when raising the Force Skills(Control, etc).

If I decide to do this I will probably come up with something like this to avoid Jedis to cost even more CPs.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
You should use the rules suggestion posted (for normal Abilities/Skills) that each force power (now skill) is not raised like normal skills, 4d, 4d+1, etc. Intead you go by how much the skill raises the total skill level above the attribute. For example. The Ability Sense 3D + the Skill Life Sense +2D for a total of 5D. The basis for rasing this skill would then be 2D instead of 5D. Also, raising the Force Abiliteis (ie Sense, Control, etc) could give you 'free' skill dice to be distributed among the Force Skills(Control Pain etc). Much like in the RAW, you get 'free' Force Powers when raising the Force Skills(Control, etc).

If I decide to do this I will probably come up with something like this to avoid Jedis to cost even more CPs.


I think my biggest problem with treating the individual Force abilities like discrete skills is based on my conception of how a Jedi perceives the Force. IMO, a Jedi's growing power is based on the degree of his connection to the Force itself, not time spent practicing discrete abilities. Increasing his knowledge of the Force (i.e. increasing his Force dice in Control, Sense or Alter) automatically increases his control over the abilities he has learned. This rule is mostly a result of the Jedi's mindset, in that there is just one Force. The Witches of Dathomir have a different mindset, in that these abilities are discrete spells, and the way in which they learn to use the Force reflects that.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
You should use the rules suggestion posted (for normal Abilities/Skills) that each force power (now skill) is not raised like normal skills, 4d, 4d+1, etc. Intead you go by how much the skill raises the total skill level above the attribute. For example. The Ability Sense 3D + the Skill Life Sense +2D for a total of 5D. The basis for rasing this skill would then be 2D instead of 5D. Also, raising the Force Abiliteis (ie Sense, Control, etc) could give you 'free' skill dice to be distributed among the Force Skills(Control Pain etc). Much like in the RAW, you get 'free' Force Powers when raising the Force Skills(Control, etc).

If I decide to do this I will probably come up with something like this to avoid Jedis to cost even more CPs.


I think my biggest problem with treating the individual Force abilities like discrete skills is based on my conception of how a Jedi perceives the Force. IMO, a Jedi's growing power is based on the degree of his connection to the Force itself, not time spent practicing discrete abilities. Increasing his knowledge of the Force (i.e. increasing his Force dice in Control, Sense or Alter) automatically increases his control over the abilities he has learned. This rule is mostly a result of the Jedi's mindset, in that there is just one Force. The Witches of Dathomir have a different mindset, in that these abilities are discrete spells, and the way in which they learn to use the Force reflects that.


However, different Jedi are mentioned to be better at different abilities, for example Telekinesis. True, its EU sources but nothing outlandishly obscure iirc. Also, having dice in a single Force Ability will not be that fun..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
However, different Jedi are mentioned to be better at different abilities, for example Telekinesis. True, its EU sources but nothing outlandishly obscure iirc. Also, having dice in a single Force Ability will not be that fun..


I was thinking something along the lines of the way the Sith powers are grouped into Disciplines, that the grouping of disciplines was in line with natural aptitude in a given area. For example, a Jedi who was gifted in the Mind area would have advantages with Force abilities in that category that he wouldn't have anywhere else. Corran Horn would be an extreme version of that, in that he would be very skilled at mental manipulation, but only able to use abilities from the Energy category (like Telekinesis) under special circumstances.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
However, different Jedi are mentioned to be better at different abilities, for example Telekinesis. True, its EU sources but nothing outlandishly obscure iirc. Also, having dice in a single Force Ability will not be that fun..


I was thinking something along the lines of the way the Sith powers are grouped into Disciplines, that the grouping of disciplines was in line with natural aptitude in a given area. For example, a Jedi who was gifted in the Mind area would have advantages with Force abilities in that category that he wouldn't have anywhere else. Corran Horn would be an extreme version of that, in that he would be very skilled at mental manipulation, but only able to use abilities from the Energy category (like Telekinesis) under special circumstances.


Just put a requisite skill level on the requisite powers (now skills). For example Control Disease. The required power is Accelerat Healing. Put in a rule that if the skill level for Control Disease is ever 2D or mor over Control Disease then the cost for advancements is double. This also works to prevent one trick pony Jedis. On top of this is the fact that the skills are still based on the C/S/A Abilities. If you have a high Alter Ability then you will be better at Alter based force skills.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
OI.. talk like that makes you seem to have common sense.. Not allowed these days Wink


LMAO. I have seen way too many of these conversations go round and round and round and degenerate into shouting matches. Nobody wins, and both parties still think that they are right. And technically, they are. The game is designed to be flexible, so that anyone can game how they want to game, including you and me. I'm too old and tired to drag out a pointless fight just so that I can say that I won.


We like going round and round.. Need to do something to keep dizzy! Laughing

Quote:
However, different Jedi are mentioned to be better at different abilities, for example Telekinesis. True, its EU sources but nothing outlandishly obscure iirc. Also, having dice in a single Force Ability will not be that fun..


Very true Z.. hence why i was suggesting going the Dathomir witch way. That way its easier to showcase someone like the horns being weak in TK but great in AM.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Or we can accept that we each have diametrically opposed viewpoints with irreconcilable differences and go our separate ways. After all, why do we need to agree? You play your game and I'll play mine...

Very well said.
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