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Attributes & Skills
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone every done rules for practical experience CPs? According to the RAW, you can only boost skills between missions by training, which seems reasonable enough (kinda time-consuming to level up in-game), but CPs aren't always awarded for practical experience performing a skill during a mission.

My tentative theory is to have characters keep track of every time they make a skill roll, maybe with hash marks or something next to the D rating. Then, between missions, during training time, the character can get a reduced CP cost on training up skills based on how often he used said skill in the game itself.

This is just a theory, with no real rules or numbers worked out beyond the general concept.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played under a gm who did that, but it seemed to 'reward' flagrent use of skills for no real reason. Such as our resident gunbunny.. used some "tech skills" just cause, so he could get lots of 'successful use of skill' tick marks, which each grouping of 5 marks gave 1cp to that skill for advancement.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I have played under a gm who did that, but it seemed to 'reward' flagrent use of skills for no real reason. Such as our resident gunbunny.. used some "tech skills" just cause, so he could get lots of 'successful use of skill' tick marks, which each grouping of 5 marks gave 1cp to that skill for advancement.


Yeah, abuse is definitely a potential issue. Maybe it could be something where the character would be required to limit it to a single attribute that is their primary area of skill emphasis.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were to implement such a rule I'd make sure that only skill roles that took the character to the cutting edge of his competence were rewarded.

So if the difficulty was equal to or greater than the character's dice in the skill times four plus any pips they had then they'd get the tick otherwise no tick.

I wouldn't want my game to turn into a grindfest.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
If I were to implement such a rule I'd make sure that only skill roles that took the character to the cutting edge of his competence were rewarded.

So if the difficulty was equal to or greater than the character's dice in the skill times four plus any pips they had then they'd get the tick otherwise no tick.

I wouldn't want my game to turn into a grindfest.


I'm not sure if I'm getting your explanation...

So, let's say the character had a Blaster of 6D+1.

Under this rule, he would only get points for beating difficulties greater than or equal to (4 x 6) + 1, so 25.

And then target number would have to be calculated individually for each skill the character has, and then modified at every train-up. Probably best represented on a template looking something like so:

DEXTERITY 4D
Blaster 6D+1 (25) |||

So every time the character beats the target number for the skill he rolled, he gets a hash mark.

Is that correct?

Subsequent to that, I'm curious how hash marks should be applied. Does each mark equal a Character Point that can only be used as for purchasing pips on that particular skill between weapons, or should each mark count toward purchasing an individual Character Point? If so, how many marks to purchase a Character Point?

Also, should this be applicable just to skills, or to Attributes as well?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
If I were to implement such a rule I'd make sure that only skill roles that took the character to the cutting edge of his competence were rewarded.

So if the difficulty was equal to or greater than the character's dice in the skill times four plus any pips they had then they'd get the tick otherwise no tick.

I wouldn't want my game to turn into a grindfest.


I could see that. OR make it that rolls which succeed at the top end of your base potential (NO cp or fp) get a tick.. so if you have 4d+2, the top end (no wild dice 6s) would be 25. So mid level very difficult..

Quote:
Subsequent to that, I'm curious how hash marks should be applied. Does each mark equal a Character Point that can only be used as for purchasing pips on that particular skill between weapons, or should each mark count toward purchasing an individual Character Point? If so, how many marks to purchase a Character Point?


As i said above, the only gm i have who used this made it each grouping of 6 ticks gave you 1cp to spend on that skill...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Has anyone every done rules for practical experience CPs?

Rarely a player might be given a directed skill increase based on practical experience. A couple of examples:

1) Character spends a lot of in game time riding an animal, sailing a boat, etc. on a scenario. GM may say, go ahead and increase your skill a pip without charging a CP (in effect giving the player extra CPs directed to that skill only).
2) Character spends a lot of time hanging out with or communicating with an alien (to the character) species. GM may say go ahead and increase your Language: specific alien language 1 pip or so. Typically this only happens if you are communicating in the alien's language not using basic and the skill is a specialization never the base language skill level.

Note: in both cases this is typically only done for skills at lower levels e.g. <4D or <+1D over the attribute. It's designed to reflect learning of new skills and to help round out characters. We don't use it to advance skills the character is already good at.

Regarding the hash mark method. Yeah, I play tested a Star Wars rules system way back in the late 70s or early 80s before WEG had the license. This system used something like this for skill/stat increases. IIR the skills/stats started around 10 and went up to 100. If you used the skill as many times as your current level it went up. Don't remember if it went 1 pt or 5 pts. As I said this was a long while ago. The project got scrapped and never went into production. It did have an interesting slider device for determing relative angle of attack and advantage for StarFighter combat.

Regarding the proposal to use hash marks in WEG SW. Sounds like waaay too much book keeping Sad to me.

If the goal is to have skills increase that are used in play more than skills that are not used in play, we've found that a combination of allowing skills to increase without a teacher at normal CP cost if they are used in a significant way, the occasional directed increases as mentioned, and some consultation between the GM and the player on what to increase based on usage in scenario along with intentions for character development seems to manage that issue rather well.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
1) Character spends a lot of in game time riding an animal, sailing a boat, etc. on a scenario. GM may say, go ahead and increase your skill a pip without charging a CP (in effect giving the player extra CPs directed to that skill only).


That seems fair for lower level stuff. IME, skills are relatively easy to improve with practical experience when you aren't really that skilled. It's only at the higher levels that you have to tweak and practice to get even just a little bit ahead. If i were to use this rule, I would probably use this method combined with your suggestion below for applying it to skills that have minimal dice in them.

Quote:
2) Character spends a lot of time hanging out with or communicating with an alien (to the character) species. GM may say go ahead and increase your Language: specific alien language 1 pip or so. Typically this only happens if you are communicating in the alien's language not using basic and the skill is a specialization never the base language skill level.


I prefer the fluency rule. After all, speaking one language a lot doesn't necessarily give you advantages to speak all of them.

Quote:
Regarding the proposal to use hash marks in WEG SW. Sounds like waaay too much book keeping Sad to me.


I think you underestimate how rabidly interested in bookkeeping a player will become if it involves a method of increasing their character's skill level faster. Naturally, depending on your campaign, the GM may have to double-check occasionally and apply appropriate punishment if he finds that someone has been cheating.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm getting your explanation...

So, let's say the character had a Blaster of 6D+1.

Under this rule, he would only get points for beating difficulties greater than or equal to (4 x 6) + 1, so 25.

And then target number would have to be calculated individually for each skill the character has, and then modified at every train-up. Probably best represented on a template looking something like so:

DEXTERITY 4D
Blaster 6D+1 (25) |||

So every time the character beats the target number for the skill he rolled, he gets a hash mark.

Is that correct?


Correct.

crmcneill wrote:
Subsequent to that, I'm curious how hash marks should be applied. Does each mark equal a Character Point that can only be used as for purchasing pips on that particular skill between weapons, or should each mark count toward purchasing an individual Character Point? If so, how many marks to purchase a Character Point?


When you have as many hash marks as the difficulty you have to beat then you get to increase the skill by +1 for free. That way the better you are at a skill the longer it takes to increase for free. If you increase a skill with hash marks then all the skills hash marks are wiped out but if you increase a skill with character points then it gets a new target difficulty but retains the existing hash marks. So a character with 2D+1 in running only needs to hit the difficulty of nine or more and acquire nine hash marks to move to 2D+2 but the character with 6D+1 in Blaster must earn twenty five hash marks to move to 6D+2.

crmcneill wrote:
Also, should this be applicable just to skills, or to Attributes as well?


Skills only, never attributes. Not force skills either.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
crmcneill wrote:
Also, should this be applicable just to skills, or to Attributes as well?


Skills only, never attributes. Not force skills either.


I can understand this from a balance (choke!) standpoint, but realistically speaking, Force skills would be no different than any other skill with regards to practical application improvement. I could see increasing the improvement cost, but not cutting it out entirely.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it (and I might be way off base) every pip you increase a force skill gives the character another power. I don't like the idea that a character can use one force power over and over and learn an entirely different power from it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
As I understand it (and I might be way off base) every pip you increase a force skill gives the character another power. I don't like the idea that a character can use one force power over and over and learn an entirely different power from it.


That sounds about right, IIRC.

If I were to use this rule, I would base the hash marks on the skills of Control, Sense and Alter, but I would either double the cost of hash marks to purchase a CP, or I would increase the target number from 4x to 5x.

My theory here is that, through regular use of the Force skills (not just the powers), the character gains a greater understanding of the Force in general, and so opens up his mind to new possibilities, which are presented in-game as new powers.
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Rerun941
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
As I understand it (and I might be way off base) every pip you increase a force skill gives the character another power. I don't like the idea that a character can use one force power over and over and learn an entirely different power from it.


Actually, each pip opens up a slot where you can learn a new power. You still have to find a teacher to teach you the new power. You don't learn it spontaneously by default.

Though, I do seem to recall a optional rule where you could spend CPs to learn new powers.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rerun941 wrote:
Actually, each pip opens up a slot where you can learn a new power. You still have to find a teacher to teach you the new power. You don't learn it spontaneously by default.

Though, I do seem to recall a optional rule where you could spend CPs to learn new powers.


I don't think I would want a rule that allowed characters to "level up" mid-game, but I do like the idea of a FS character being able to discover new facets of the Force on his own via his practical experience and meditations. I wouldn't want it to be easy, but Luke Skywalker managed to acquire new Force powers between ROTJ and Heir to the Empire, all without someone to teach him, so it should be feasible for others as well.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rerun941 wrote:
Esoomian wrote:
As I understand it (and I might be way off base) every pip you increase a force skill gives the character another power. I don't like the idea that a character can use one force power over and over and learn an entirely different power from it.


Actually, each pip opens up a slot where you can learn a new power. You still have to find a teacher to teach you the new power. You don't learn it spontaneously by default.

Though, I do seem to recall a optional rule where you could spend CPs to learn new powers.


Didnt know it was an optional rule (like its important Laughing ). I think its 5 CPs for a force power if you dont raise a skill (is it double with no teacher, or is it not possibly by the RAW?).
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