The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Composite-Beam Lasers
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Composite-Beam Lasers Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12023
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't remember seeing a beam from a ship in RotS. As to the death star, while that is based imo on the same tech, it is not the exact same.
_________________
Confuscious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11756
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I don't remember seeing a beam from a ship in RotS. As to the death star, while that is based imo on the same tech, it is not the exact same.


It's at the very beginning, as Obi-wan and Anakin are flying their starfighters through the capital ship battle. As they are approaching a Venator-Class Star Destroyer, a powerful energy beam fires from within the ventral hangar bay and destroys a Separatist Frigate with one shot. The official explanation is that Star Destroyers under Anakin's command have been modified with SPHA-T beam weapons that fire out of that hangar to give the ship added anti-cap ship punch.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 12023
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess i need to rewatch it.
_________________
Confuscious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darklighter79
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I don't have any answers for this, but I think the answer must be something in their tactical utility; if they are part of the SWU, but we only saw a composite beam laser in action in the case of the Death Star, then the various combat forms in the classic trilogy must have been situations where composite-beam weapons weren't as effective as standard blast-type weapons.

But when you see them on the screen (SPHA-T, Homing Spider Droid, LAAT-H) the benefits are obvious:
1) They are instant-hit weapons - speed of light. Only SPHA-T in one scene is slightly slower, but the rest...So basically you do not have to compensate for the distance.
2) They are area weapons. LAAT's lasers can sweep over certain terrain. Like a long range lightsaber
3) They create a large explosions on hit. Again LAAT's example with sweep over Geonosis arena. Some droids shots during Geonosis battle.

As for RPG rules (d20): these were the only weapons (only the LAATs version) that were bypassing certain amount of armor automatically. Strange that it was not taken into consideration during conversion to d6....
_________________
Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11756
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
1) They are instant-hit weapons - speed of light. Only SPHA-T in one scene is slightly slower, but the rest...So basically you do not have to compensate for the distance.
2) They are area weapons. LAAT's lasers can sweep over certain terrain. Like a long range lightsaber

My thinking here is to treat them more like very-high-ROF automatic weapons, like a gatling gun, only moreso. I already have rules in place for that, so any stat I wrote up would most likely give them a 4D Auto-Fire rating (which is applicable to Damage, Accuracy or as a MAP nullifier when shooting at multiple targets, but must be declared prior to the shot).

Quote:
3) They create a large explosions on hit. Again LAAT's example with sweep over Geonosis arena. Some droids shots during Geonosis battle.

I'd disagree here; the explosions I see (just rewatched the arena rescue scene to refresh my memory) are consistent with the explosions generated by blasters in general, so causing explosions is (IMO) more a feature of the sudden energy release of a solid object getting hit by an intense bolt of charged plasma.

Quote:
As for RPG rules (d20): these were the only weapons (only the LAATs version) that were bypassing certain amount of armor automatically. Strange that it was not taken into consideration during conversion to d6....

My reaction here is mostly to say that WEG isn't WOTC, and Thank the Maker. WOTC featured a lot of overly specialized rules that don't necessarily carry over into a simpler system like WEG.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Darklighter79
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
My thinking here is to treat them more like very-high-ROF automatic weapons, like a gatling gun, only moreso. I already have rules in place for that, so any stat I wrote up would most likely give them a 4D Auto-Fire rating (which is applicable to Damage, Accuracy or as a MAP nullifier when shooting at multiple targets, but must be declared prior to the shot).

I would use existing rules for cone attacks (Deck-Clearing Blaster).

CRMcNeill wrote:

I'd disagree here; the explosions I see (just rewatched the arena rescue scene to refresh my memory) are consistent with the explosions generated by blasters in general, so causing explosions is (IMO) more a feature of the sudden energy release of a solid object getting hit by an intense bolt of charged plasma.


I would also disagree:
Forward pulse cannons
vs
Pin-point sweep
Really no difference?

Quote:
My reaction here is mostly to say that WEG isn't WOTC, and Thank the Maker. WOTC featured a lot of overly specialized rules that don't necessarily carry over into a simpler system like WEG.

Well, it's about making a good conversion by use of existing rules. Rules for bypassing and ignoring are already here. Just need to be adjusted to this one. Additionally D6 Space has rules fitting specifically for this situation. It just requires some will to search.

SPHA-T is an example of completely wrong conversion (scale, damage, even weapon type and number) - I do not know what it was based on.
_________________
Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story.


Last edited by Darklighter79 on Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2115
Location: Pullman, WA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be operating similar to Fire-linking rules. Using several smaller, more energy efficient lasers combining into one larger more damaging beam weapon.
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11756
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
I would use existing rules for cone attacks (Deck-Clearing Blaster).

I'm not seeing it. The beams may be used to sweep across a line of targets, but that isn't the same as a cone of energy that hits everything in its path. And there is no reason the gunner has to sweep across a target, especially when shooting at something a lot tougher than a droideka.

Quote:
Really no difference?

Difference in scale, perhaps. In the escape from Tatooine, Han Solo's blaster pistol causes blast effects as well (jump to about 1:05 when the shooting starts). Objects struck by high powered bolts of energy tend to explosively detonate unless they are sturdy enough to soak the energy. The CBLs are just bigger at it.

Quote:
Well, it's about making a good conversion by use of existing rules. Rules for bypassing and ignoring are already here.

Where, exactly? I'm unaware of any official stats that mandate ignoring X amount of armor.

Quote:
SPHA-T is an example of completely wrong conversion (scale, damage, even weapon type and number) - I do not know what it was based on.

The SPHA-T is the result of someone trying to write a stat while conforming to WEG's broken Scale system, which I have long since moved beyond. The stats posted on the Holocron would actually be somewhat acceptable using my system (Walkers are at +8D instead of +4D, and all capital ships smaller than a Victory are reduced from +12D to +10D).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11756
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
It could be operating similar to Fire-linking rules. Using several smaller, more energy efficient lasers combining into one larger more damaging beam weapon.

I'm strongly inclined to dump "composite-beam lasers" and call the particle beam cannon instead.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Darklighter79
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I'm not seeing it. The beams may be used to sweep across a line of targets, but that isn't the same as a cone of energy that hits everything in its path

The cone rules are closest in WEG SW what I found to reflect this, but it would need to be adjusted to line. There were too many targets for proper autofire bonus, IMHO. "Sweep" rule from D6 implies too much penalty for the damage. It had to be combined with 1:1 ROE bonus damage to compensate (but I am not sure it would be enough)

CRMcNeill wrote:

And there is no reason the gunner has to sweep across a target, especially when shooting at something a lot tougher than a droideka.

Well, in the scene linked Droideka came through the "sweeping area". Although not hit directly, it went airborne with other droids (B1s and B2s) due to large explosion.

Quote:
The CBLs are just bigger at it.

Yes, and affecting more than one target with a hit. Just like FA's bowcaster, but more powerful.

Quote:
Where, exactly? I'm unaware of any official stats that mandate ignoring X amount of armor.

But you have in SWD6 so called special rules for certain weapons/tools.
In this case I had in mind rules for Ion cannons that ignore shields, rules for fussion cutter that takes down 1D of hull, armor, regardless of the damage done. That's for basic SW rules.
Now, taking benefit from other d6 sourcebooks, with expanded and more detailed rules, we can use benefit/disadvantage/special abilities and modify weapons with them. It's already there, so no work is needed to adapt them. In this particular case I had in mind Armor-Defeating Attack.

Quote:
The SPHA-T is the result of someone trying to write a stat while conforming to WEG's broken Scale system, which I have long since moved beyond. The stats posted on the Holocron would actually be somewhat acceptable using my system (Walkers are at +8D instead of +4D, and all capital ships smaller than a Victory are reduced from +12D to +10D).

What I had in mind, was the weapon set: different from ICS. databank, other rpg materials (strange, considering the conversion rules were officially printed in first source book in 1999)
GG15 - had it wrong with the set. Clone Wars Campaign conversion fixed the set but weapons' scale is still wrong. For example main turbolaser in starfighter scale... Rolling Eyes

It should be:
Heavy Turbolaser x1
Scale: Capital
Damage: 7D


Heavy Ion Cannon x1
Scale: Capital
Damage: 3D


Heavy Laser Cannon x1
Scale: Starfighter
Damage: 5D


Heavy Missile Launcher x1
Scale: Capital
Damage: 9D


Mass Driver Cannon x1
Scale: Starfighter
Damage: 7D


Heavy Repeating Blaster Cannons x12
Scale: Character
Damage: 6D


Range and fire control I leave for GMs to adjust accordingly.
_________________
Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11756
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
The cone rules are closest in WEG SW what I found to reflect this, but it would need to be adjusted to line. There were too many targets for proper autofire bonus, IMHO. "Sweep" rule from D6 implies too much penalty for the damage. It had to be combined with 1:1 ROE bonus damage to compensate (but I am not sure it would be enough)

That's because WEG doesn't have decent Auto-Fire rules, just a mish-mash of different special rules under a few stats. If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself, which is exactly what I did.

And from a rules perspective, there isn't a whole lot of difference between sweeping a laser beam across a line of targets and doing the same with a full auto spray from a minigun. With a cone effect, you're hitting everything at once, rather than hitting one after the other in rapid succession.

Quote:
Well, in the scene linked Droideka came through the "sweeping area". Although not hit directly, it went airborne with other droids (B1s and B2s) due to large explosion.
Quote:
Yes, and affecting more than one target with a hit. Just like FA's bowcaster, but more powerful.

That's where you get into needing a rule for blast radius effects, which WEG never addressed apart from hand grenades. Fortunately, I have a house rule for that, too.

Quote:
In this particular case I had in mind Armor-Defeating Attack.

Sure, there are plenty of special rules, but an armor defeating attack has no official precedent, and is somewhat self-defeating by being too narrow a bonus; not everything is going to be armored in the SWU, so you end up losing damage potential against something an overly-specialized rule fails to take into account. It's better to just give it a higher base damage (which would be appropriate for something mounted on a platform that size anyway).

If everything had an armor stat in the SWU, then it might be a viable rule, but under the RAW, only character scale targets have a separate armor stat to be ignored.

That being said, I have used an Armor-Defeating attack rule in a stat. However, the weapon in question was a specialized armor piercing round that did low base damage, with the idea being that you loaded up this round when you specifically knew you were going against an armored target because the tradeoffs in base damage vs. armor penalties made it more useful than a standard round under those circumstances.

Quote:
What I had in mind, was the weapon set: different from ICS. databank, other rpg materials (strange, considering the conversion rules were officially printed in first source book in 1999)
GG15 - had it wrong with the set. Clone Wars Campaign conversion fixed the set but weapons' scale is still wrong. For example main turbolaser in starfighter scale... Rolling Eyes

Updating the Scale Rule (which I already did) would solve that problem and a bunch more besides. Yes, the Heavy Turbolaser needs a Damage bump (even in my system, it inflicts the same damage as the main guns on an AT-AT), but a revised Scale System makes it a lot easier to justify putting capital-grade weaponry on a vehicle with a scale modifier of +8D as opposed to +4D.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Darklighter79
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself, which is exactly what I did.

OK, before using new rules. what about rules from D6 space? Has anybody tested them in play? Do they work out?

Quote:
That's where you get into needing a rule for blast radius effects, which WEG never addressed apart from hand grenades.

Haven't found anything in other D6 sourcebooks too. Yet.

Quote:
That being said, I have used an Armor-Defeating attack rule in a stat. However, the weapon in question was a specialized armor piercing round that did low base damage, with the idea being that you loaded up this round when you specifically knew you were going against an armored target because the tradeoffs in base damage vs. armor penalties made it more useful than a standard round under those circumstances.

Found AP ammo in D6 space:
Quote:
Flechette rounds are small, tightly packed slivers of metal
designedtodamagearmor,includingdermalplate. Whenusing
llechette rounds, add 2 to the damage of the weapon.
AP bullets are used to pierce armor. When a character is
using AP rounds against a target wearing armor with a armor
value of+ 2 or more, increase the damage of the AP round by
+4. If the character is not wearing the minimum armor requirement,
then subtract 2 &om the damage of the round.


Quote:
Updating the Scale Rule (which I already did) would solve that problem and a bunch more besides.

This one is quite large (for a walker) - 140,2 meters. Later I will check its WotC stats to see how durable it is.
_________________
Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11756
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
OK, before using new rules. what about rules from D6 space? Has anybody tested them in play? Do they work out?
Quote:
Haven't found anything in other D6 sourcebooks too. Yet.
Quote:
Found AP ammo in D6 space:

You seem to be presuming that any solution must be derived first and foremost from published WEG sources. I disagree. And if it were written down somewhere that I had to use WEG sources and not make up my own rules, I would ignore that rule and still write up my own rules. Fortunately, WEG took the opposite approach (read my signature).

Quote:
This one is quite large (for a walker) - 140,2 meters. Later I will check its WotC stats to see how durable it is.

Where are you getting 140.2 meters? All official information I've been able to find puts the SPHA-T at less than 60 meters long.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Darklighter79
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 223

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

You seem to be presuming that any solution must be derived first and foremost from published WEG sources. I disagree.

No, I did not say that. But it's good to see if there is some rules that may be useful or helpful. I do not reject, nor accept them automatically.
Like SW "Calling upon the Dark Side" - good example of a broken rule.

Quote:
Where are you getting 140.2 meters? All official information I've been able to find puts the SPHA-T at less than 60 meters long.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery_Turbolaser
Canon vs Legends.

Canon - 140 meters. Source: SW main site databank.
Legends - 60 meters. Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File.

Anyway I checked it's stats for d20. Hull points of Gamma Class Assault Shuttle, but damage resistance is greater by 25% than Gamma's. SPHA-T has also higher damage threshold - meaning it can take more damage in a single blow before suffering system efficiency decrease. As far as I remember Gammas are originally capital scale?
_________________
Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 11756
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery_Turbolaser
Canon vs Legends.

Canon - 140 meters. Source: SW main site databank.
Legends - 60 meters. Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it just because somebody supposedly official from Star Wars posted it on the internet. These are the same people who tried to say that Admiral Raddus' MC75 in Rogue One was a converted building. 140.2 would put this thing in the size range of a Corellian Corvette, and there is no way an Acclamator could carry 36 walkers that size along with everything else it fit into it.

I place far more faith in the analysis from the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, who put the size in the 30-50 meter range based on film evidence (even going so far as to count the ladder rungs on the vehicle's exterior). I'd be more inclined to say that 140.2 meters is a typo, and the actual length is 40.2 meters

Quote:
Anyway I checked it's stats for d20. Hull points of Gamma Class Assault Shuttle, but damage resistance is greater by 25% than Gamma's. SPHA-T has also higher damage threshold - meaning it can take more damage in a single blow before suffering system efficiency decrease. As far as I remember Gammas are originally capital scale?

I don't consider D20 stats to be a reliable source either. For example, a direct conversion of several of the prequel-era starfighters (where D20 stats are the only official ones) produce speeds well in excess of Space: 12, which is the maximum attainable by the A-Wing, the "fastest production starfighter in the galaxy." D20 stats are a useful guideline, but not authoritative or binding rules.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0