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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space speeds from d20 are not the same as d6. This is not a good example. The point was the sloppy conversion that did not even base on movie evidence and considered a huge cannon a starfighter scale.

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D20 stats are a useful guideline, but not authoritative or binding rules.

Only movies are. They set the rules, modify/expand them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Space speeds from d20 are not the same as d6. This is not a good example. The point was the sloppy conversion that did not even base on movie evidence and considered a huge cannon a starfighter scale.

The problem goes deeper than a sloppy stat conversion; it's a flawed official rule. Trying to write a stat within the confines of that flawed rule (the WEG 2R&E Scale System) exacerbated the problem of poor stat choices. Once the rule is fixed, it not only makes the original bad stat more workable, it solves multiple problems with other stats as well.

You just commented recently on the very topic where I discussed an alternate scale system, and I replied with a link to the current system. Have you not gone back and looked at it?
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Have you not gone back and looked at it?

I have. But I need to run a simulation or test. You wrote (in one of the older posts) the argument why light freighters are in starfighter scale and not in the walker. I see the point. But at the same time you put a sail barge to walker scale. But isn't it just a covered (not with armor) a flying entertainment hall? It is also empty inside, no armor, ect.
Now back to the light freighters again: in this scale system I find it hard for Millennium Falcon to resist so much punishment from ISD during Ep IV and V. You would have to implement pin-point defenses on ISD and suggest that it was firing starfighter scale weapons on Falcon. Because one hit with capital weapon would vaporize it. Have you tested it on this?
But still these transports are essentially the length of an AT-AT. Sure, hollow inside, but ATs are also as transports.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
But at the same time you put a sail barge to walker scale. But isn't it just a covered (not with armor) a flying entertainment hall? It is also empty inside, no armor, ect.

Because Scale is primarily a measurement of size, not durability. I have additional house rules where Scale modifiers apply to acceleration and maneuverability, so something the size of the Sail Barge is Walker-Scale because of its dimensions, which also affect how well it can maneuver and accelerate. To represent the fact that it's a "flying entertainment hall," I gave it a Body of 2D (basically as tough as a stock YT-1300), and the argument could be made for it being even lower, like 1D.

Quote:
Now back to the light freighters again: in this scale system I find it hard for Millennium Falcon to resist so much punishment from ISD during Ep IV and V. You would have to implement pin-point defenses on ISD and suggest that it was firing starfighter scale weapons on Falcon. Because one hit with capital weapon would vaporize it. Have you tested it on this?

The numbers work. Under my systems, ISDs have three different scales of weaponry, Destroyer-Scale main batteries at +12D, Frigate-Scale secondary batteries at +10D and Starship-Scale point defense cannon at +6D. The ISD in ESB was combining the fire of its forward secondary batteries, putting the coordination bonus into Fire Control rather than damage. A single shot hit the Falcon, rolling 10D Starship-Scale damage (6D plus the 4D Scale modifier) against the Falcon's 9D (6D Hull with 3D of Shields) and took out the rear deflector in that arc.

Quote:
But still these transports are essentially the length of an AT-AT. Sure, hollow inside, but ATs are also as transports.

AT-ATs don't have ion drives, hyperdrives, acceleration compensators, artificial gravity, etc. All that extra power can be shunted into carrying massive amounts of armor - likely supplemented by energy shielding of some type (magnetically shielded hull armor, Trek-type structural integrity fields, etc) - and very big, very powerful guns.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Have you not gone back and looked at it?

I have. But I need to run a simulation or test. You wrote (in one of the older posts) the argument why light freighters are in starfighter scale and not in the walker. I see the point. But at the same time you put a sail barge to walker scale. But isn't it just a covered (not with armor) a flying entertainment hall? It is also empty inside, no armor, ect.
Now back to the light freighters again: in this scale system I find it hard for Millennium Falcon to resist so much punishment from ISD during Ep IV and V. You would have to implement pin-point defenses on ISD and suggest that it was firing starfighter scale weapons on Falcon. Because one hit with capital weapon would vaporize it. Have you tested it on this?
But still these transports are essentially the length of an AT-AT. Sure, hollow inside, but ATs are also as transports.


I've been using McNeill's updated scale system in all of my recent games, and I've been happy with the results, I really like that Walker scale is higher than Starship, because we see in several sources Walkers taking out small capital ships by concentrating fire. It also explains why the AT-ATs were largely impervious to most blast bolts during the battle of Hoth.

With scale the way that it was before, a single Jedi could easily cut the legs off an AT AT with relative ease by running up and swinging their lightsaber with Lightsaber Combat active.

It also makes it easier as Mcneill said, to mount weapons of different scales on ships and vehicles designed for varied tasks. A tank's main weapon may be walker scale, but it may have something akin to an E-web for targeting smaller speeders and infantry.

Another nice thing are the vehicles that are in-between. Instead of everything bigger than a light transport being upped to capital scale, we have stepping stones up to a super star destroyer
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little late to the party...

CRMcNeill wrote:
Darklighter79 wrote:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery_Turbolaser
Canon vs Legends.

Canon - 140 meters. Source: SW main site databank.
Legends - 60 meters. Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it just because somebody supposedly official from Star Wars posted it on the internet. These are the same people who tried to say that Admiral Raddus' MC75 in Rogue One was a converted building. 140.2 would put this thing in the size range of a Corellian Corvette, and there is no way an Acclamator could carry 36 walkers that size along with everything else it fit into it.

I place far more faith in the analysis from the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, who put the size in the 30-50 meter range based on film evidence (even going so far as to count the ladder rungs on the vehicle's exterior). I'd be more inclined to say that 140.2 meters is a typo, and the actual length is 40.2 meters

I love SWTC.

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery_Turbolaser#Behind_the_scenes

The Wookieepedia entry addresses the size discrepency:

Quote:
The 140.2 meter databank size does not visually correlate with the physical appearances in Attack of the Clones of which the legends size of "Less then 60 meters" comes from. The CGI model used in the film is slightly visually larger than two times the length of an AT-TE, rather than significantly larger as implied by the databank.[2] The 2018 canon reference book, Star Wars Encyclopedia of Starfighters and Other Vehicles authored by Landry Q. Walker, also establishes a length of 140.2 meters.[3]

Not that Star Wars official corrected it, but at least Wookieepedia acknowledges the issue.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Another nice thing are the vehicles that are in-between. Instead of everything bigger than a light transport being upped to capital scale, we have stepping stones up to a super star destroyer

I particularly like what it did to the larger Walker-Scale vehicles. Under the WEG system, they were basically just for show, or for target practice. X-Wings could strafe the crap out of AT-ATs since they outmatched them in every stat line apart from troop transport. Under this system, AT-ATs and similar vehicles are monsters, able to threaten small starships (heck, fractalsponge's Scythe-Class Heavy Tank that I just did stats for mounts the same dual turbolaser as found on the Corellian Corvette), and X-Wings have to work hard to take them on. Now, it actually makes sense to go through the effort of deploying something so formidable down to a planet's surface.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Because Scale is primarily a measurement of size, not durability.


So it's more like generic D6 scale modifiers (from computer chip to moon).

CRMcNeill wrote:
I have additional house rules where Scale modifiers apply to acceleration and maneuverability, so something the size of the Sail Barge is Walker-Scale because of its dimensions, which also affect how well it can maneuver and accelerate. To represent the fact that it's a "flying entertainment hall," I gave it a Body of 2D (basically as tough as a stock YT-1300), and the argument could be made for it being even lower, like 1D.


This is for the scenes like in TESB, I guess:
Great, we can still outmaneuver them

Quote:
A single shot hit the Falcon, rolling 10D Starship-Scale damage (6D plus the 4D Scale modifier) against the Falcon's 9D (6D Hull with 3D of Shields) and took out the rear deflector in that arc.

Did you modify tractor beams in the same way? To give a slim chance for Executor to catch Falcon in the ending scene...

Quote:
and X-Wings have to work hard to take them on.


I have checked Scarrif attack scene

The second walker (splitted in half) took direct attack from 3 X-Wings and U-Wing. And the punch that splitted him was a dual torpedo attack. For the reminder: these were transport/cargo walkers with most likely lesser hull.

Quote:
Not that Star Wars official corrected it, but at least Wookieepedia acknowledges the issue.


Maybe it's a full lenght with this turbolaser? Looks like another Executor or DS2 size issue then :/

PS. DS2 is 160 km, right?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
So it's more like generic D6 scale modifiers (from computer chip to moon).

It's more of a reorganization and expansion of the 2R&E Scale rules. The expansion includes the Called Shot rules from the combat chapter. Since those rules were dice penalties when shooting at small targets, the system essentially had two different Scale rules, one for characters and larger objects, the other for characters and smaller objects. It just made more sense to combine them into one. I added the flat scale modifiers (ala D6 Space) on request.

CRMcNeill wrote:
This is for the scenes like in TESB, I guess:
Great, we can still outmaneuver them

That was my Exhibit A, actually.

Quote:
Did you modify tractor beams in the same way? To give a slim chance for Executor to catch Falcon in the ending scene...

What I did was a special rule allowing tractor beams to project in narrow or wide angle modes, essentially allowing them to switch between scales, with the restriction that the projector can't be used for a round while it's switching. Destroyer-Scale projectors can function in three modes: Starship, Frigate and Destroyer.

Quote:
I have checked Scarrif attack scene

The second walker (splitted in half) took direct attack from 3 X-Wings and U-Wing. And the punch that splitted him was a dual torpedo attack. For the reminder: these were transport/cargo walkers with most likely lesser hull.

I'm aware. I was really underwhelmed by those AT-ACTs. Not only were they less combat capable than a full-up AT-AT, but they're a crappy design for cargo transport, as well. I drive trucks for a living, so I have some passing experience with cargo loading and unloading, and at the very least, the AT-ACT would require specialized loading and unloading equipment at every drop point.

But yeah, from a combat perspective, they wouldn't have anywhere near the Body of an AT-AT, and a 3D Body under my system only soaks at 5D against Starfighter-Scale proton torpedoes.

Quote:
Maybe it's a full length with this turbolaser?

You're really reaching here. Yes, the turbolaser overhangs the main body of the SPHA-T, but there is no way it does so by 90-100 meters. To put it in perspective, if you put an SPHA-T on a football (American) field and backed it up to the goal line, the front end would, at most, reach the 50-yard line. A turbolaser that extended the length from 50 meters would stretch all the way across the rest of the field, and stick out 30 meters past the ends of the goalposts.

Quote:
Looks like another Executor or DS2 size issue then :/

A word of advice: life in the D6 fandom will be far easier and much less stressful if you don't take WEG - or even Lucasfilm's - numbers as gospel. They're human. They get things wrong. This is just one such example.

Quote:
PS. DS2 is 160 km, right?

You sure you want to know?
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked about DS2 in the context of the scene from Force Awakens. I know ILM said it was 900 km. But in FA everybody was shocked how big Starkiller was (except Han) compared to DS. But if DS I was used as an example, then Starkiller Base was close to the size of DS II.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Starkiller Base was close to the size of DS II.

And approximately the same size as the grain of salt I take with anything coming out of the new trilogy.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which DS was used in this scene for comparison?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Which DS was used in this scene for comparison?

It was never specified, but then, there was so much vagueness about the Starkiller Base and TFA in general that it kinda got lost in the shuffle. Best to not get me started on how I feel about the new canon and new trilogy.
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Ning Leihrec
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

It was never specified, but then, there was so much vagueness about the Starkiller Base and TFA in general that it kinda got lost in the shuffle. Best to not get me started on how I feel about the new canon and new trilogy.


I'm always impressed by the restraint here in the Pit. In this "theater of the mind" we are freed up to work with what WORKS and omit the franchise's feckless blunders of late.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my recollection of the novel, the starkiller base, was compared to the DS1 not the 2.
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