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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | If somehow transfering power to a stealth field generator, this would have to come from somewhere, here is where I see the double blind.
By rerouting power from engines and maybe even weapons and more they can power up the stealth field, but they are now severly crippled, they may not be able to navivate much, the vessel speed could be down to 1-2 units, though they may have systems like sensors still working. maybe even the field emits radiation, or some form of light, so they have to put shaders and shutters on the bridge window and fly by instumnets alone. |
The official description of cloaking devices is that they create a virtual pocket in EM-band space, bending all forms of electromagnetic energy around the ship. However, since the cloaked ship's sensors also depend greatly on that same energy, it is effectively blind to everything around it. As such, it must depend on other sensory methods (gravity, radiation, drive exhaust heat / radiation, etc) in order to detect other ships / objects.
| Quote: | | I would see weapons and suceh being severely limited, to maybe concusssion torpedos and maybe some non energ defenses. |
I went with the concept that energy weapons disrupt the cloak field when fired through it, creating an energy pulse that highlights the ship's location, and as such, their use is counterproductive.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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mass driver technology, like the "older" clone wars connons mounted on the walkers.
I can not imagine any form of projectile weapon like cannons and stuff that fires classical shels and bullets will do much if anything.
However I see see several uses for cloaking, maybe some smaller ships can use "slug thrower" type weapons and be cloaked while in atosphere but not while in space.
Then while some ships cloak in space these I at least envision as "observers" aka unarmed but with top notch sensors and the the like, maybe even a way to boost other vessels fire control.
and then is the cloaked space attack ship, here I see either the on and off use of the field, use the cloak to get in attack position, then turn it off and do all out attack, then retreat with cloak to escape or reposition for another attack.
I can see someone being stealthy all the time though with some type of weapon that will not disrupt a stealth field too much, maybe a type of sonic weapon, someting not ballistic and not energy based like blaster...
sonic I know can be quite effective, but I am not at all sure how to use it in a ship type setting |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:12 am Post subject: |
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Sonic, no, but the seismic charges seen in AotC (likely concussion weapon tech) are a possibility.
And any sort of external targeting relay is going to run into the same issues of being able to convey targeting information to the shooter through the cloak. Any sort of comms system will need to be non-EM based in nature. There is also the fact than any sort of targeting emissions will immediately alert the target that something bad is about to happen (or at least make them suspicious).
Ultimately, though, as the title to this topic states, I'm trying to use cloaking devices to add a submarine aspect to the Star Wars "World War II in Space" setting, and since submarines in WWII rarely had access to direct targeting assistance (location sharing is a different story), I wouldn't want to take that route here.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It's ancient alien technology jury-rigged into a modern ship for temporary use. |
One possible solution I considered to the double blind effect was a tech effect whereby the cloak "read" the energy it was redirecting around the ship, allowing it to be displayed in such a way that the crew could effectively see through the cloak because the cloak itself was also a passive sensor. Perhaps your alien cloak has something along these lines, but renders the display in some exotic fashion that can't be interpreted or comprehended by anyone other than a Force user. That way, all that would be needed for the Force User to be able to pilot the ship would be a successful Shift Senses roll...
| Quote: | | I'm thinking it is patched into the shield system so the cloaked ship can't use shields while using the cloak, which makes it even more dramatic because you are blind and your shields are down. I'm thinking you also have to be very careful how you maneuver to remain invisible. Firing weapons would not be possible or give it away. |
I had ideas for most of this on the other page, such as having ships be traceable by their drive exhaust (especially at faster speeds).
| Quote: | | Jumping to and from hyperspace while cloaked is out of the question. |
My idea here was that the cloak didn't work against HSIs, and thus jumps into and out of hyperspace could be detected normally, but that the size of the "splash" was determined by both the size and the ship's speed of travel. As such, cloaked ships attempting to enter a system under cloak would drop out of hyperspace several lightyears out, switch over to their much slower auxiliary hyperdrive (like a backup, but intended for multiple uses), and enter the system at a much slower velocity, one less likely to be detected by any HSIs in-system. This would be consistent with submarines that transit to an operational area at speed before slowing down to creep into a targeted area.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | One possible solution I considered to the double blind effect was a tech effect whereby the cloak "read" the energy it was redirecting around the ship, allowing it to be displayed in such a way that the crew could effectively see through the cloak because the cloak itself was also a passive sensor. Perhaps your alien cloak has something along these lines, but renders the display in some exotic fashion that can't be interpreted or comprehended by anyone other than a Force user. That way, all that would be needed for the Force User to be able to pilot the ship would be a successful Shift Senses roll... |
I like it.
| Quote: | | I had ideas for most of this on the other page, such as having ships be traceable by their drive exhaust (especially at faster speeds). |
Logical.
| Quote: | Jumping to and from hyperspace while cloaked is out of the question.
My idea here was that the cloak didn't work against HSIs, and thus jumps into and out of hyperspace could be detected normally, but that the size of the "splash" was determined by both the size and the ship's speed of travel. As such, cloaked ships attempting to enter a system under cloak would drop out of hyperspace several lightyears out, switch over to their much slower auxiliary hyperdrive (like a backup, but intended for multiple uses), and enter the system at a much slower velocity, one less likely to be detected by any HSIs in-system. This would be consistent with submarines that transit to an operational area at speed before slowing down to creep into a targeted area. |
Makes sense.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Another possible wrinkle: Gravitic Homing Torpedoes (based on the Acoustic Homing Torpedoes developed by both Germany and the US during the later stages of WWII. The Allied version was actually air dropped for anti-submarine use, while the German version was a short range, fire-and-forget anti-ship weapon used as a counter against the increased effectiveness of Allied sub-hunting tactics and equipment.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Ray
Commodore
Joined: 31 Oct 2003
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Don't forget to have people whisper until someone goes, "HEY! THEY CAN'T HEAR OUR VOICES IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE!!!"
Then pelt him with empty ration cans because he is being really, really loud in a tin can. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray wrote: | Don't forget to have people whisper until someone goes, "HEY! THEY CAN'T HEAR OUR VOICES IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE!!!"
Then pelt him with empty ration cans because he is being really, really loud in a tin can. |
In space, no one can hear you groan...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Ray wrote: | Don't forget to have people whisper until someone goes, "HEY! THEY CAN'T HEAR OUR VOICES IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE!!!"
Then pelt him with empty ration cans because he is being really, really loud in a tin can. |
In space, no one can hear you groan... |
Raises an interesting point, though. If Acoustic = Gravitic for the purposes of this concept, what are ways a ship's crew could reduce the ship's gravitic signature and "rig for silent running"?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Raises an interesting point, though. If Acoustic = Gravitic for the purposes of this concept, what are ways a ship's crew could reduce the ship's gravitic signature and "rig for silent running"? |
Some type of antigravity masker, canceller, or reducer
Might be interesting to have the AG-masker have the side effect of negating the internal artificial gravity so that while the ship is "under water" (undergrav?) the crew has to work in Zero-G. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking of tying it to the acceleration compensator, which has to work with a LOT more g's than would a standard 1-g artificial gravity field. Maybe a cloaked ship has to dial back its acceleration compensator, which reduces its mass signature, but has to limit its speed and maneuverability in order to protect the crew . It achieves a similar effect as "running silent" but for different reasons.
In fact, that would make sense for all ships running silent, not just cloaked ones.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I was thinking of tying it to the acceleration compensator, which has to work with a LOT more g's than would a standard 1-g artificial gravity field. |
OK. No problem. I think that having artificial gravity and having acceleration compensation are the same technology. That could mean it's one device with multiple uses or two (or more) separate devices. In any case, if the acceleration compensator is affected, so might the artificial gravity. Mostly I thought having some visible manifestation and minor side effect to being submerged (or whatever its called) sounded interesting.
| Quote: | | Maybe a cloaked ship has to dial back its acceleration compensator, which reduces its mass signature, but has to limit its speed and maneuverability in order to protect the crew . |
It wouldn't effect speed. It would effect how quickly a ship could accelerate up to any given speed or decelerate down from a speed. So it might be unsafe to go at a higher speed because you couldn't decelerate fast enough to avoid objects without splatting everything inside the ship. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | In any case, if the acceleration compensator is affected, so might the artificial gravity. Mostly I thought having some visible manifestation and minor side effect to being submerged (or whatever its called) sounded interesting. |
It’s certainly a possibility, but if the goal is to make cloaking device usage resemble World War 2 sub / anti-sub action, then having the ships limited to slower speeds and careful maneuvers is more in line with that air of suspenseful silence than just having everyone floating in zero-g. And while the systems are certainly interconnected, I’m convinced that the system neutralizing hundreds or thousands of g’s if acceleration will have a much more sensor signature than the one generating a 1g directional gravity field.
| Quote: | | It wouldn't effect speed. It would effect how quickly a ship could accelerate up to any given speed or decelerate down from a speed. So it might be unsafe to go at a higher speed because you couldn't decelerate fast enough to avoid objects without splatting everything inside the ship. |
I believe it was Star Wars Technical Commentaries that said that WEG SU values are only realistic if they measure relative acceleration, not fixed distance. For example, if an A-Wing and a YT-1300 accelerate from a fixed point, all other things being equal, then the A-Wing will be accelerating at 12 units / second^2, while the YT will only be accelerating at 4 units / second^2. Add that to the apparent ability of SW ships to “bend” their course in zero-g, and having SUs be units of relative acceleration makes a lot more sense. It’s not perfect, especially with the fixed ranges for weapons in space, but it’s as close as it’s going to get, IMO.
And if SUs are a measurement of acceleration, then limiting the ship’s speed and maneuverability while the ship’s acceleration compensator is dialed down for stealth purposes also fits with the “WW2 submarine warfare” feel.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It’s certainly a possibility, but if the goal is to make cloaking device usage resemble World War 2 sub / anti-sub action, then having the ships limited to slower speeds and careful maneuvers is more in line with that air of suspenseful silence than just having everyone floating in zero-g. |
Well except for missing that entire silence aspect. Might be more useful to look at how the Romulan cloaking device worked in the original Star Trek.
| Quote: | | And while the systems are certainly interconnected, I’m convinced that the system neutralizing hundreds or thousands of g’s if acceleration will have a much more sensor signature than the one generating a 1g directional gravity field. |
It has nothing to do with sensor signature based on a 1g field. But if you don't like the idea, then don't use it.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I believe it was Star Wars Technical Commentaries that said that WEG SU values are only realistic if they measure relative acceleration, not fixed distance. For example, if an A-Wing and a YT-1300 accelerate from a fixed point, all other things being equal, then the A-Wing will be accelerating at 12 units / second^2, while the YT will only be accelerating at 4 units / second^2. Add that to the apparent ability of SW ships to “bend” their course in zero-g, and having SUs be units of relative acceleration makes a lot more sense. It’s not perfect, especially with the fixed ranges for weapons in space, but it’s as close as it’s going to get, IMO. |
Space Units are used for two things. Ship speeds and ranges for weapons and sensors. Any interpretation of of what an SU is that doesn't work for both speeds and ranges is not useful. It makes as much sense (more I would say) to simply go back to measuring ship speed in dice the way 1E did.
| Quote: | | And if SUs are a measurement of acceleration, then limiting the ship’s speed and maneuverability while the ship’s acceleration compensator is dialed down for stealth purposes also fits with the “WW2 submarine warfare” feel. |
That's a big if. If A, then B is logically true for any B at all whenever A is false. True in the logical sense that you cannot disprove the statement.
Example: If I am a Wookiee, then it will rain tomorrow in Chicago is logically true (in a trivial sense) because it cannot be shown to be false unless two things are true. (1) It does not rain in Chicago tomorrow and (2) I am a Wookiee. But I'm not a Wookiee. Therefore the statement is not false.
Ain't formal logic wonderful? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16174
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Well except for missing that entire silence aspect. Might be more useful to look at how the Romulan cloaking device worked in the original Star Trek. |
Trek-type cloaks in general don't work for this concept because of the single-blind aspect. SWU cloaks (per WEG, at least) have a specific weakness in that they can't see back out through their own cloak. One of the few energies the cloak doesn't mask, however, is gravity, so I am using gravity based sensors as a sort of "Space Sonar." This has been extensively covered in previous pages...
| Quote: | | It has nothing to do with sensor signature based on a 1g field. |
But it does, though. If I'm using gravitics in place of sonar, then tech that manipulates gravity is going to be detectable on passive sensors, and the degree to which it manipulates it [1g vs ~1,000g] will affect the contact strength on said sensors.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Space Units are used for two things. Ship speeds and ranges for weapons and sensors. Any interpretation of of what an SU is that doesn't work for both speeds and ranges is not useful. |
At their core, the primary aspect of SUs is that they are a relative measurements. I fail to see why an SU can't be a measurement of acceleration and weapon range, especially when one factors in the vagaries of effective weapon ranges and moving targets.
Not nearly as big as you're making it out to be, I think. It certainly makes more sense than the alternative.
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