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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | There have never been any official D6 stats for cloaking devices, and I've never seen home-brew ones that did a decent job of addressing the drawbacks of using a cloak, particularly the double-blind effect. |
That I don't know anything about, but the scimitar as written up in the starship stats book pg 309. has a cloaker for "smaller" ships.
How good a write up it is idk, but it basically reduses the enemy systems more than actually claoking. but is could be something to look at since it too is a claker and has a write up on it |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Not really, though. Ships like the Scimitar completely threw out the old EU concept of a cloaking device in trade for something like the cloaks used by the Klingons and Romulans in Trek. The single-blind effect is nothing like most older EU descriptions.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:32 am Post subject: prior Sith Infiltrator cloak stats |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | There have never been any official D6 stats for cloaking devices, and I've never seen home-brew ones that did a decent job of addressing the drawbacks of using a cloak, particularly the double-blind effect. |
That I don't know anything about, but the scimitar as written up in the starship stats book pg 309. has a cloaker for "smaller" ships.
How good a write up it is idk, but it basically reduses the enemy systems more than actually claoking. but is could be something to look at since it too is a claker and has a write up on it |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Not really, though. Ships like the Scimitar completely threw out the old EU concept of a cloaking device in trade for something like the cloaks used by the Klingons and Romulans in Trek. The single-blind effect is nothing like most older EU descriptions. |
I know the fan stats are inadequate, but it is not inappropriate to bring them up in this thread, even if only for compare/contrast. What not to do!
| Mike Hall wrote: | The Invisible Enemy
Invisibility fields were considered theoretical until
the discovery of the rare stygium crystals on the
volcanically turbulent planet Aeten II in the Outer
Rim (WEBMASTER: The rarity of the crystals and
the obscurity of their planet of origin explains why
cloaking devices are not common in the Star Wars
galaxy, unlike some science-fiction universes...). An
invisibility field is a terrifying weapon, since it can
defeat most security systems and make acts of theft,
sabotage, and assassination all but unstoppable.
...
The cloaking device on the Infiltrator makes it
all-but invisible to the eye... and most conventional
sensor arrays. Detecting the Infiltrator while the
field is engaged requires a Ship Sensors roll
against a Heroic difficulty. |
This was pure homebrew (pre-d20) stats from the SW Ep I RPG Sb.
| (Adapted from d20 stats by Gary Astleford) Thiago S. Aranha wrote: | Note: Darth Maul’s Infiltrator is equipped with a stygium
crystal cloaking device. This device bestows a 3D+1
penalty to any Sensors rolls made to detect it. This penalty
also reduces bonuses granted by Fire Control systems to
a minimum of 0D, and the difficulty to hit the Infiltrator is
increased as if it were under 1/2 cover (Rulebook page 93)
due to the Infiltrator’s indistinct lines. |
This was the d20-converted stats from the aforementioned Starships Stats fan compilation.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to think that after four pages of discussion, including posting stats that are completely different from the stygium-crystal cloaking device, I've got a pretty good handle on what not to do. I'm not trying to make an ultra-rare super-stealth space transport sized platform, which is pretty much all that stygium crystal cloaks are good for.
And I never thought the "cloaks are super-duper rare" concept was particularly realistic; why would Captain Needa's first assumption be a cloaking device if they're so rare as to be almost mythical? In fact, his main objection seemed to be that a cloaking device couldn't be fitted to a ship as small as the Falcon. Most of the assumptions about stygium-crystal cloaks take the "extremely rare" statement from WEG at face value without bothering to question whether or not WEG got it right in the first place.
Point being, I've already read up on everything officially available about cloaking devices - including the single-blind method used aboard the Scimitar and the stealth ship from Clone Wars - and decided that it's too simplistic and/or contradictory to really represent what cloaking devices from the EU are supposed to be able to do. I don't mind if an ultra-rare, single-blind cloaking device exists for specialty ships like the Scimitar, but it doesn't work for the purposes of this concept.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I know the fan stats are inadequate, but it is not inappropriate to bring them up in this thread, even if only for compare/contrast. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | I'd like to think that after four pages of discussion, including posting stats that are completely different from the stygium-crystal cloaking device, I've got a pretty good handle on what not to do. I'm not trying to make an ultra-rare super-stealth space transport sized platform, which is pretty much all that stygium crystal cloaks are good for.
...
Point being, I've already read up on everything officially available about cloaking devices - including the single-blind method used aboard the Scimitar and the stealth ship from Clone Wars - and decided that it's too simplistic and/or contradictory to really represent what cloaking devices from the EU are supposed to be able to do. I don't mind if an ultra-rare, single-blind cloaking device exists for specialty ships like the Scimitar, but it doesn't work for the purposes of this concept. |
Reality check - This thread isn't just for you. This is for everyone reading it too. Everything posted on this site is for the public. Other people may want to compare to what has already been put out there before you. Some readers may even opt to go in a different direction than you do.
I say again, it was not inappropriate to bring other fan cloaking device stats up in this thread. But I am still sorry anyway that my 2011-self didn't think of posting them back then.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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And yet I am involved in this conversation, and thus have a right to an opinion. Seeing as how this thread sat idle for just shy of 11 months, and that Mamatried replied to my bump post almost immediately, it's not unreasonable for me to assume he is replying to me in particular. Why isn't it appropriate for me to respond that his suggestion doesn't work for me?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | WWII boats (subs are boats, ships are targets) primarily operated on the surface under diesel power (we didn't have the German snorkel technology yet) and only submerged to attack, evade detection, or escape an attack. While submerged the boats operated on battery power with greatly reduced speed and endurance. If you want to capture the WWII atmosphere I suggest the following:
No new sensors are needed. Just increase the searcher's Sensors difficulty to find the cloaked ship. Passive sonar (listening only) was common, but active sonar (one ping only) less so. Remember that active sensors have a greatly reduced range from passive ones so if the pursuer gets close enough and goes active, the gig is probably up anyway. Also, CGT's could level the playing field and as cloaks become more prevalent, the Empire could refit dedicated hunters with those sensors or something equivalent.
While the ship is cloaked, I suggest a top speed of 20-25%% of maximum and then only for short duration before auxiliary power (the battery) is depleted, and no energy weapons or shields (torpedoes and missiles only). A cruising speed of 10% maximum should provide several hours of endurance to evade. You're basically limited by your battery capacity vs. speed and life support. Total EMCON is the rule and even a minor power or atmosphere leak (caused by damage or neglected maintenance) could leave a trail for pursuers to track the ship. |
I can see some penalties to sensors to find the ship, the severit of the penalt could be both distance and quality of the device.
As to the reduction of power this makes all the sense in the world, and with very few exeptions most Sci Fi or Sci Fantasy do have some power reduction on colaked ships.
I can even see sehipe outfiteed with a cloaking device having one of two main configurations, less speed reduction at the cost of no weapon systems while cloaked.
This is envisioned as recon/spy tpe vessels, if we look to the sr-75 blackbird, it was not only due to speed a steath plane, the design and the matrials designed at the time to be "the best" radar (sensors) deflection materials as well as the painting/coating.
The second configuration I can see is a "hit and run" type vessel that due to the cloaking can be used as the above, but has at least low power defensive and or offensive weapons. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Here.
W/r/t sub-types, the German kriegsmarine provided a few examples:Type VII - a "corvette" submarine, the classic U-boat of the Battle of the Atlantic.
Type IX - "frigate" submarine, larger, with heavier armament (only one more tube than the Type VII, but able to carry more torpedoes) and much longer ranged (operated as far away as the Indian Ocean)
Type X - long range minelayer / cargo transport
Type XI - prototype artillery platform
Type XIV - resupply boat (for the purposes of the game, could also serve as minelayer & cargo transport as well)
Later boats like the Type XVII, XXI and XXIII were high-tech variants on the above listed types.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | And yet I am involved in this conversation, and thus have a right to an opinion. Seeing as how this thread sat idle for just shy of 11 months, and that Mamatried replied to my bump post almost immediately, it's not unreasonable for me to assume he is replying to me in particular. Why isn't it appropriate for me to respond that his suggestion doesn't work for me? |
No one said it was not appropriate to tell Mamatried that his suggestion doesn't work for you. And no one is challenging your right to your opinion. Why are you getting so confrontational in your language here?
You were replying to me, not him. What you replied to was me sharing the existing stats for the sake of anyone reading this thread. People may follow the thread to see what you come up with, but they may still want to compare to existing states. The stats I shared are unacceptable to me too, but for the third time I say, it was not inappropriate for me to share them in this thread.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1829
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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someone answered that the stgium wasn't really the way they were thinking of the cloaking is how saw it.
nothing more and nothing less |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | someone answered that the stgium wasn't really the way they were thinking of the cloaking is how saw it.
nothing more and nothing less |
This.
I'm actually okay with the stygium cloak stats insofar as they accurately represent what stygium cloaks are supposed to be able do, specifically, they're the SWU equivalent of extremely advanced, extremely rare stealth aircraft. By all accounts, they're single-blind (ala Trek cloaking devices), so the crew can see out of them, but no one outside can see in.
The double blind effect is, I think, an essential component of the specific endeavour here, of using cloaks to create an analog of submarine warfare in the SWU. Having a cloak that the pilot can see out of without difficulty takes away a major balancing effect of the rule, in that one ship can now see the other and react accordingly.
I'm okay with stygium crystal cloaking devices existing alongside hibridium cloaking devices (apart from my increasing annoyance with the "technology by magic crystal" approach being taken in so much of the EU of late), but stygium crystal tech would be so rare as to practically be non-existent. It's somewhat ironic that, in both main instances of the EU (the Scimitar and the cloaked attack ship from Clone Wars), the cloaked ships were being operated by advanced Force sensitives that could likely have just flown normally even with a double blind by using the Force to guide them, but I digress...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It's somewhat ironic that, in both main instances of the EU (the Scimitar and the cloaked attack ship from Clone Wars), the cloaked ships were being operated by advanced Force sensitives that could likely have just flown normally even with a double blind by using the Force to guide them, but I digress... |
The cloaking device that will show up near the end of my next campaign will be double-blind but it is ancient alien tech so the technobabble explanation for how it works won't be that important. It most certainly will require a Force-sensitive character to fly the ship it gets installed on.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | The cloaking device that will show up near the end of my next campaign will be double-blind but it is ancient alien tech so the technobabble explanation for how it works won't be that important. It most certainly will require a Force-sensitive character to fly the ship it gets installed on. |
Interesting. How do you see that working stats-wise? My premise on the previous page was based on there being some method for non-FS crews to see through (or around, as the case may be) the cloak.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried
Commodore
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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If somehow transfering power to a stealth field generator, this would have to come from somewhere, here is where I see the double blind.
By rerouting power from engines and maybe even weapons and more they can power up the stealth field, but they are now severly crippled, they may not be able to navivate much, the vessel speed could be down to 1-2 units, though they may have systems like sensors still working. maybe even the field emits radiation, or some form of light, so they have to put shaders and shutters on the bridge window and fly by instumnets alone.
I would see weapons and suceh being severely limited, to maybe concusssion torpedos and maybe some non energ defenses. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The cloaking device that will show up near the end of my next campaign will be double-blind but it is ancient alien tech so the technobabble explanation for how it works won't be that important. It most certainly will require a Force-sensitive character to fly the ship it gets installed on. |
My premise on the previous page was based on there being some method for non-FS crews to see through (or around, as the case may be) the cloak. |
Understood. That certainly would make it more practical for games in general. I don't feel cloaking devices are very 'Star Wars' to appear in the game much, so I'm thinking of it as a 'one and done' thing (maybe used twice).
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Interesting. How do you see that working stats-wise? |
I haven't thought far enough ahead to have stats in mind. It's ancient alien technology jury-rigged into a modern ship for temporary use. I'm thinking it is patched into the shield system so the cloaked ship can't use shields while using the cloak, which makes it even more dramatic because you are blind and your shields are down. I'm thinking you also have to be very careful how you maneuver to remain invisible. Firing weapons would not be possible or give it away. Jumping to and from hyperspace while cloaked is out of the question.
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