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Fallon Kell
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Strange situation.. how would you go? |
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| garhkal wrote: | Lets say for what ever reason, our hero gets wounded when acting first (eg enemy uses power block, or he flubs the attack and wounds himself as the complication)...
Since when wounded you get no more actions in the round, would that also stop him making a reactive dodge/parry? |
I run actions all at once instead of sequentially, unless there's some specific reason not to, so I wouldn't penalize dodge. I sure as heck would have someone make fun of my player's character, though...
| Whill wrote: | | I've only ever had one player that wanted to do that "just to be sure because he is too dangerous to be left alive" but I threatened a DSP and he relented. 8) |
That's what grenades are for... 
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hm. Seems i have a strange viewset.. many of the players i have ran for would rather shoot a prone opponent if they could be reasonably sure of taking him out quicker, rather than 'spreading the wealth'..
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Guardian_A
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Hm. Seems i have a strange viewset.. many of the players i have ran for would rather shoot a prone opponent if they could be reasonably sure of taking him out quicker, rather than 'spreading the wealth'.. |
Thats been my experience as well. Its almost always better to finish off one enemy before you focus on another. After all, dead is dead, but hurt can heal. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Guardian_A wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Hm. Seems i have a strange viewset.. many of the players i have ran for would rather shoot a prone opponent if they could be reasonably sure of taking him out quicker, rather than 'spreading the wealth'.. |
Thats been my experience as well. Its almost always better to finish off one enemy before you focus on another. After all, dead is dead, but hurt can heal. |
Four points:
(1) According to the rules, wounded characters don't heal, i.e. first aid, as well by themselves and if a buddy helps them out by applying a medpac, that is 2 opponents that aren't shooting at you for one or two rounds. This is, as I understand it, one rationale for the regular military using normal, rather than dum-dum rounds. One wounded opponent effectively ties up one to two unwounded buddies.
(2) If my character can wound a second opponent before he shoots me I don't have to worry about his remaining attacks.
(3) Shooting at downed targets while ignoring active ones just gives the active targets an effective +1D bonus to their shot since they don't have to incur a MAP for dodging my shot.
(4) In part this may be a style difference - (a) heroic Star Wars space opera with good guy heroes vs. (b) Ultimate Force-like SAS-style gritty action with Ross Kemp's character Henno double tapping downed opponents. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Good points all.
While I do allow all players the gimme to meta-know any PC's exact damage result (wound effect) when hit in combat, I have not automatically told any player the damage results of attacks on NPCs in 20 years. Since all damage effects except soak and stun result in the target falling prone, it is often not so easy to tell how badly wounded someone is. My players don't usually know if the guy they just blasted is getting back up the next round or not. Which means, blasting targets that are already down could be a waste if they were Incapacitated or worse and not getting back up anyway. Without knowing if an enemy is unconscious or not, it is a tactical disadvantage to shoot at someone the same round they fall prone vs. shooting at an active target who could still shoot at you or your teammate (without a MAP penalty as Bren pointed out). IF the prone enemy gets back up THEN worry about it. I run my NPCs as not knowing anyone else's exact wound status so they generally follow the same obvious tactic.
| Guardian_A wrote: | | After all, dead is dead, but hurt can heal. |
Nothing personal, but I despise that mentality in players. I say, after all, down is down.
If you know an enemy is not getting back up in that same encounter, then in most circumstances I would consider it evil to act to prevent a future encounter by shooting a sentient when he's down. I would likely give DSPs for that. It's the heat of combat. The main goal of my PCs in combat is to stop being shot at by the enemy (to neutralize the threat). It is not to eliminate the threat for good (although that does often happen). In my game, my players almost never start a fire-fiight, so are usually reacting to threats as they occur.
Besides, that "kick 'em when they're down" mentality is anathema to a good ongoing campaign plot because the villain can heal and live to antagonize the PCs again, this time with a grudge for being wounded. Neutralizing but not killing enemies only helps the drama. IMO, wanting to prevent a hurt villain from ever healing is forgetting that this is a game, the point of which is to tell entertaining stories. Shooting an enemy when he's down is taking the game WAY to seriously, IMO.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | While I do allow all players the gimme to meta-know any PC's exact damage result (wound effect) when hit in combat, I have not automatically told any player the damage results of attacks on NPCs in 20 years. |
Good reminder that we don't all treat damage the same way. Sometimes I forget that not everyone plays the way we do. We typically don't metagame damage for players or NPCs. However, players and NPCs sometimes "know" an opponent or ally is dead because the damage is so high that severe damage or an instant kill is assured. This usually comes out as descriptive damage e.g. shots to face, neck, heart, severed limbs, decapitation, major torso blows, etc. and possibly a GM comment such as "he's down" in an final or funereal tone of voice. Similarly they may notice that an opponent or ally is not moving after going down (typically a sign of incap or higher damage). The reason "know" is in quotes is because unless the characters actually check for vitals via first aid or a force skill, they may actually be wrong in their perception that the opponent or ally is "dead."
Regarding whether killing prone/wounded/unconcious opponents nets you a DSP, for me that depends on circumstances. For Force Sensitives the answer would almost generally, perhaps always, be yes you get a DSP. For non-force sensitives, it probably depends on circumstance and motivation, but often if there is a good in-character rationale for killing a downed opponent such action will not earn them a DSP and certainly not 1 DSP per incident. Frankly, this is behavior I would expect from Spec Force infiltrators on a mission where they cannot take prisoners and detection endangers the mission and the lives of the team. In line with this, I am willing to allow the nonforce sensitives to be quite a bit grittier than the force sensitives. For me the difference provides extra drama from intraparty conflict as FS and nonFS must negotiate appropriate standards of behavior. |
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taedae
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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now thinking about it i would count the person as proned, but i would have to say that the npcs wont target him anymore because he isn't a threat. however, the situation does suck
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | (1) According to the rules, wounded characters don't heal, i.e. first aid, as well by themselves and if a buddy helps them out by applying a medpac, that is 2 opponents that aren't shooting at you for one or two rounds. This is, as I understand it, one rationale for the regular military using normal, rather than dum-dum rounds. One wounded opponent effectively ties up one to two unwounded buddies. |
IIRC you can use first aid on yourself.. just at a further -1d..
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Guardian_A
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Guardian_A wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Hm. Seems i have a strange viewset.. many of the players i have ran for would rather shoot a prone opponent if they could be reasonably sure of taking him out quicker, rather than 'spreading the wealth'.. |
Thats been my experience as well. Its almost always better to finish off one enemy before you focus on another. After all, dead is dead, but hurt can heal. |
Four points:
(1) According to the rules, wounded characters don't heal, i.e. first aid, as well by themselves and if a buddy helps them out by applying a medpac, that is 2 opponents that aren't shooting at you for one or two rounds. This is, as I understand it, one rationale for the regular military using normal, rather than dum-dum rounds. One wounded opponent effectively ties up one to two unwounded buddies.
(2) If my character can wound a second opponent before he shoots me I don't have to worry about his remaining attacks.
(3) Shooting at downed targets while ignoring active ones just gives the active targets an effective +1D bonus to their shot since they don't have to incur a MAP for dodging my shot.
(4) In part this may be a style difference - (a) heroic Star Wars space opera with good guy heroes vs. (b) Ultimate Force-like SAS-style gritty action with Ross Kemp's character Henno double tapping downed opponents. |
I think I'll take a moment to clarify my previous entry. A lot if it depends on the GM, the players and/or the situation.
As a GM, I know my players have always wanted to finish off any unique enemies if they have the time. After all, if you shoot, stab, crush, blow up, or otherwise injure an enemy, they tend to hold a grudge.
I also know that with Stormtroopers and other generic enemies, down and out is often good enough. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yup. its like in ADND.. mooks such as orcs and gobs, once they are down, don't care about them. unless there are shamans around who can heal them!
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | IIRC you can use first aid on yourself.. just at a further -1d.. |
Yes, you can, but your odds aren't very good unless you have a good first aid score. You get -1D for being wounded and further -1D for first aiding oneself. If the character is an average soldier his first aid is probably no better than 3D before penalties. Making an Easy roll on 1D is a less than 16% probability. Even if he takes extra time to get a 1D bonus, he is still only rolling about a 50% probability of success. Given that each failure increases the difficulty of healing it is much better to have an unwounded pal roll the full 3D instead of first aiding oneself. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Yes, you can, but your odds aren't very good unless you have a good first aid score. You get -1D for being wounded and further -1D for first aiding oneself. If the character is an average soldier his first aid is probably no better than 3D before penalties. Making an Easy roll on 1D is a less than 16% probability. Even if he takes extra time to get a 1D bonus, he is still only rolling about a 50% probability of success. Given that each failure increases the difficulty of healing it is much better to have an unwounded pal roll the full 3D instead of first aiding oneself. |
Can you spend Force Points or Character Points when performing a First Aid roll by yourself?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Yes, you can, but your odds aren't very good unless you have a good first aid score. You get -1D for being wounded and further -1D for first aiding oneself. If the character is an average soldier his first aid is probably no better than 3D before penalties. Making an Easy roll on 1D is a less than 16% probability. Even if he takes extra time to get a 1D bonus, he is still only rolling about a 50% probability of success. Given that each failure increases the difficulty of healing it is much better to have an unwounded pal roll the full 3D instead of first aiding oneself. |
Can you spend Force Points or Character Points when performing a First Aid roll by yourself? |
I allow it, but I seem to allow FP and CP expenditures for more things than most people. If you're still talking about downed stormtroopers and such, though, they may not have the CP or FP to change the outcome...
As far as wounded stormtroopers go, though, I have them stand back up and start fighting again next round. There's time for re-attaching limbs and all that sissy stuff after the fight.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Can you spend Force Points or Character Points when performing a First Aid roll by yourself? |
Yes. But as Fallon Kell already mentioned, mooks may not have either. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Can you spend Force Points or Character Points when performing a First Aid roll by yourself? |
Yes. But as Fallon Kell already mentioned, mooks may not have either. |
Mooks? Meh. It is entirely possible that the mook's only purpose for existence was to die to enhance the dramatic suspense of the campaign's plot.
:twisted:
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