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The K-Wing
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject: The K-Wing Reply with quote

The K-Wing bomber came up in a recent discussion under another topic, and rather than continue going off-topic with it over there, I thought I'd start up a new topic here.

I've always been a fan of the Black Fleet Crisis, and the K-Wing was one of the things that hooked me. I loved Stephen Coonts' Flight of the Intruder series, and the K-Wing seemed very much like an SW version of the old A-6 Intruder.

Unfortunately, the K-Wing doesn't seem to have gotten the treatment that such a potentially powerful craft deserves. Cracken's Threat Dossier ignored, it, and the Starships of the Galaxy version was strikingly different from what was seen in the novels.

One thing that threw me was that Michael P. Kube-McDowell (the Author of the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy) actually stated after the fact that the K-Wing was not equipped with a hyperdrive. This seemed off to me, as hyperdrive equipped starfighters are the hallmark of the Alliance military. A hyperdrive equipped K-Wing would greatly enhance power projection for the New Republic Fleet, especially with its emphasis on starfighter combat.

K-Wing losses to Yevethan fighters at Doornik-319 would certainly support the addition of defensive weaponry in the Mark II variant seen in the EGtVV, but the massively outsized turrets on that ship seem very excessive, and it seems as if the authors of the article were using words at random when mounting a quad-turbolaser on the K-Wing.

Adhering to canon requires that the initial K-Wing have no integral cannon weaponry and no hyperdrive; not much can be done about that. However, if I were to do my own stats for the Mk. II, I'd change up the following:

1). Replace the third (center-line) engine with a hyperdrive. This engine is intended to give the K-Wing added speed and is mounted at an angle to help the ship pull out of high-speed bombing runs, and there are other ways that can be achieved (see below).

2). Mount a single dorsal turret just behind the cockpit for anti-starfighter defense. I'd put either a dual or quad blaster in it, since it is strictly for defense against attacking starfighters.

3). Retain the concept of the crew module being detachable as an escape pod, complete with its own engines. My idea is that the secondary engines on the crew pod can be used in vectored thrust mode while the pod is still attached to the K-Wing, and that angled thrust replaces the center-line thruster's off-axis effect.

Thoughts?
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well first there's the stats in Gry's Starship Stats, Revised and Expanded.

Quote:
Craft: Koensayr BTL-S8 K-Wing Assault Starfighter
Affiliation: New Republic
Era: New Republic
Type: Close/precision aero-space bomber
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 16 meters
Skill: Starfighter piloting: K-wing
Crew: 1, gunners: 1
Cargo Capacity: 50 kilograms
Consumables: 4 days
Cost: 210,000 credits
Maneuverability: 2D
Space: 7
Atmosphere: 350; 1,000 kmh
Hull: 4D+2
Shields: 2D
Sensors:
Passive: 20/1D
Scan: 35/2D
Search: 70/3D
Focus: 3/3D+2
Twin Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: Dorsal turret
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-3/13/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300/1.3/2.5 km
Damage: 5D
Quad Turbolaser
Fire Arc: Ventral turret
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1-2/8/1.5
Atmosphere Range: 100-200/800/1.5 km
Damage: 6D
18 Configurable Hardpoints *
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 1D+2
Space Range: 1-2/8/15 for missiles, 1/3/7 for torpedoes,
1/2/5 for heavy rockets, 1/2/3 for heavy proton bombs.
Atmosphere Range: 100-200/800/1.5 km for missiles, 50-
100/300/700 for torpedoes, 50-100/200/500 for heavy
rockets, 50-100/200/300 for heavy proton bombs.
Damage: The K-wing may carry up to 18 proton torpedoes
(9D), 18 concussion missiles (8D) (or any combination of the
two), 2 heavy bombs (10D, capital scale), 8 heavy rockets
(8D), or 4 heavy space bombs (11D).


Then there's the conversion of the Saga edition of Starships of the Galaxy. Page 7 of the conversion.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One glitch that I can see is that it is supposed to have more crew; probably 2-3 gunners...
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No glitch, even in the novels it only had a total crew of two, pilot and gunner.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
No glitch, even in the novels it only had a total crew of two, pilot and gunner.


That's because in the novels, it didn't have the laser turrets, just the hardpoint weaponry. Looking at the visual of the ship, it features two side-by-side cockpits and two separate ball turrets for the defensive weaponry.
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Henrik.Balslev
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
No glitch, even in the novels it only had a total crew of two, pilot and gunner.


according to Star Wars Wiki the K-wing has 1 Pilot, 1 Bombardier, and 2 Gunners
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again I have to disagree. The 4 crew comes from the WotC stats, but Wookieepedia points out in the Behind the Scenes on the K-Wing that the novel placed the pilot and gunner one behind the other. The WotC stats come more frome an image which places the gunner beside the pilot to "increase their field of vision." If one were to be placed behind and above the other they'd both have a better field of vision.

The Saga edition claims during the Black Fleet Crisis there was a crew of four, yet Kube-McDowell makes no mention of two extra crewmen which you'd think would be an important feature when introducing a new fighter. It also states that the K-Wing depicted there is supposed to be a second generation which added two turrets. The K-Wing of the novels sounded more like a first generation, so what were two more men for if their turret's didn't exist?

Sorry if I'm being a jerk, guys. But I'm just not buying the four man crew based on the novels. Now it's possible you could claim the stats in Gry's Starship Stats PDF represent the first generation and those in the conversion of Saga Edition Starships of the Galaxy represent the second edition (the conversion does list three gunners and one pilot). But I just don't see that as the K-Wing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
Sorry if I'm being a jerk, guys. But I'm just not buying the four man crew based on the novels. Now it's possible you could claim the stats in Gry's Starship Stats PDF represent the first generation and those in the conversion of Saga Edition Starships of the Galaxy represent the second edition (the conversion does list three gunners and one pilot). But I just don't see that as the K-Wing.


No worries I dont know the ship, but I looked it up online and found the wiki page Smile
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
Again I have to disagree. The 4 crew comes from the WotC stats, but Wookieepedia points out in the Behind the Scenes on the K-Wing that the novel placed the pilot and gunner one behind the other. The WotC stats come more frome an image which places the gunner beside the pilot to "increase their field of vision." If one were to be placed behind and above the other they'd both have a better field of vision.


This is true, but the side-by-side design does have precedent. The A-6 Intruder used a side-by-side seating arrangement, with the bombardier on the right hand side and slightly lower and behind the pilot. The bombardier didn't necessarily need the enhanced visibility because most of his work was done head-down in his bombsight. That being said, I prefer your suggested tandem arrangement over the version in the NEGVV.

Hellcat wrote:
Sorry if I'm being a jerk, guys. But I'm just not buying the four man crew based on the novels. Now it's possible you could claim the stats in Gry's Starship Stats PDF represent the first generation and those in the conversion of Saga Edition Starships of the Galaxy represent the second edition (the conversion does list three gunners and one pilot). But I just don't see that as the K-Wing.


I agree with you, as I prefer the novel version of the K-Wing to the weird version presented in the NEGVV. However, an accurate stat should match one or the other. The two man tandem crew version had no energy weapons at all; just whatever could be strapped onto the hardpoints. Per the NEGVV, their version is an update; putting the cockpits side by side and adding the two weapons turrets, each with their own gunner. IMO, there should be two separate stats; one for the novel version (the original) and a second set for NEGVV's pipe dream (if you chose to accept that version).

From my original post, it's pretty obvious I'm on the fence. Defensive weaponry would be a natural evolution after the losses suffered at Doornik-319, but the weaponry that was added seems over the top (a quad-turbolaser is weaponry fit for a capital ship, after all).
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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TyCaine
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In many ways the two versions remind of two very different 20th century aircraft.

The novel version seems similar to the A-6 Intruder, an aircraft IIRC fitted with payload weapons only, so usually bombs and missiles, designed for precision strikes but usually nothing in the way of minigun armament for ground support or self defense.

While the NEGVV version seems more akin to the A-10 Thunderbolt (or Warthog as some might know it better), commonly known as the Tank Buster in it's time due to the heavy cannon mounted in it's nose and the substantial payload it could carry, used for close support of ground troops.

I'm no military guy, just an enthusiast so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on the above, but the two types are designed for very different roles, so the fact that we might be trying to fit them together as two versions of the same aircraft seems off to me...

Personally, I like the Warthog version of the K-Wing, and use it as such in my own SWU, mainly from the fact I always saw the Rebels and later the New Republic, as needing more multi-role aircraft than specialized, and though the X-Wing & Y-Wing have their specialties, they could fill many roles... Which is how I see the K-Wing fitting in...

Just my .02 Smile


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyCaine wrote:
In many ways the two versions remind of two very different 20th century aircraft.


I think you're pretty dead-on about the A-6, but there are some significant differences between the Mk. II version and the A-10. The A-10 has a single crewmember instead of the 4 listed for the K-Wing. If it had a single turbolaser in a fixed-forward mount like the GAU-8 Avenger on the A-10, I could see a stronger resemblance.

I wrote up some stats for a SWU version of the A-10, but it ended up more like the A-10's predecessor; the A-1 Skyraider. The key difference was the lack of the big gun up front. Like the Skyraider, it still had cannon, but was forced to rely on carried ordnance to take out armor and the like.

Quote:
Personally, I like the Warthog version of the K-Wing, and use it as such in my own SWU, mainly from the fact I always saw the Rebels and later the New Republic, as needing more multi-role aircraft than specialized, and though the X-Wing & Y-Wing have their specialties, they could fill many roles... Which is how I see the K-Wing fitting in...


That's cool. To each their own. My POV is that, while I can see K-Wing models after the Black Fleet Crisis being fitted with defensive weaponry, the K-Wing is primarily a bomb truck, not a gunboat. IMO, it is designed for the primary purpose of carrying a lot of ordnance and dropping it on a target as accurately as possible. The Alliance already has a heavy assault fighter with a big gun in the B-Wing, with its heavy laser cannon. A quad-turbolaser is a weapon found in the heavy batteries of a Victory I-Class Star Destroyer, not mounted as defensive weaponry on a Starfighter-Scale bomber craft. Anti-starfighter weaponry should take the form of blaster cannon or lasers, not turbolasers.

I think the X-Wing and the E-Wing are better suited to multi-role missions. The Alliance has a very potent mix of multi-role and specialized craft, and the K-Wing fills a very important niche in that structure.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

I think you're pretty dead-on about the A-6, but there are some significant differences between the Mk. II version and the A-10. The A-10 has a single crewmember instead of the 4 listed for the K-Wing. If it had a single turbolaser in a fixed-forward mount like the GAU-8 Avenger on the A-10, I could see a stronger resemblance.

Hmmm, true, I can see your point on that one, the A-10 might have been an off comparison, I blame it on being tired... Smile

crmcneill wrote:

I wrote up some stats for a SWU version of the A-10, but it ended up more like the A-10's predecessor; the A-1 Skyraider. The key difference was the lack of the big gun up front. Like the Skyraider, it still had cannon, but was forced to rely on carried ordnance to take out armor and the like.

I'd like to see those stats if you still have them around, as for the K-Wing, I may have to change my views on it, particularly on the turbolaser mounting as looking at it through fresh eyes it is sort of ridiculously overpowered...

crmcneill wrote:

I think the X-Wing and the E-Wing are better suited to multi-role missions. The Alliance has a very potent mix of multi-role and specialized craft, and the K-Wing fills a very important niche in that structure.

I whole-heartedly agree about the X-Wing, E-Wing I don't personally like but also agree it's a good multi-role... Now though I'm just more conflicted regarding my skewed view of the K-Wing, and not sure where it will fit into my SWU at this time...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I often trash EU starship stats and rewrite them to suit my own sensibilities, or just make some minor adjustments. My game's X-Wing models are called T-65A, B, C and XJ variants (with a number of subvariants, eg. C-1, 2, 3 and 4).

I usually apply conditioning as per IRL warbirds like some of you, which I'm quite familiar with (have developed java script flight models for some commercial combat sim mods).

The K-Wing here follows along the lines of some PC engineered starship creation projects during campaigns, and I'd apply those same house rules for it.
What you essentially have here is a starfighter-scale frigate, not unlike an Imperial customs vessel or a very heavily modded freighter in terms of power requirements and systems requirements. But much stricter engineering requirements as those types of vessels, I'm ruling it'd be a complicated, unreliable and expensive craft to deploy or maintain with a very low serviceability rate.
What the K-Wing attempts to do is place a customs frigate amount of punch and power into a ship which flies and is crewed like a starfighter.

There are dozens of engineering problems with this kind of layout, which makes it expensive relative to its serviceable benefits.
Quite often what you find in real world jetfighter engineering is a compromise between what is possible and what is affordable to deploy and maintain for the role.

In our gaming starfighters have servicability issues and other engineering related material you don't have to worry about as much with larger craft. Starfighters rely upon a lot of automated systems controlled by a cut down centralised flight computer, when really that's inadequate for a starship. They need engineering stations and multiple redundant systems to operate effectively and safely in deepspace.

But the idea of starfighters is short haul use and frequent tear down maintenance in order to perform specific combat roles similarly to a much larger and more expensive craft, in the short term. You do a raid with them, bad idea to fight a war with them unless you're desperate. Your crews just won't come back and neither will their ships and the expense, but you may very well achieve the strategic objective.

That's what it comes down to you know, cost/benefit ratio to achieve a given strategic objective. Often it's just cheaper in the long run to send a fleet of cruisers. Starfighters are really for small planetary security forces and point defence. They're a waste of credits and lives for almost everything else.

Hey this is the very same argument in jetfighter engineering, the air superiority multirole versus expensive single roles like the Foxbat. At some point making a specialised craft too expensive actually costs you more than you can gain. It's why the Warthog is designed like it is, cheaply in tech terms with old school innovations to compensate. There was a roof on its budget. The Eagle had an open cheque book, that's why it's so good at everything.
And specialised craft are not better than air superiority mulitroles, they're designed to be as good at one thing, for a cheaper price.
A Fitter-K or a Strike Eagle is as good as a Warthog at anti-armour, don't kid yourself about that. They are. But the Hog is much cheaper and easier to field and has logistical benefits regarding serviceability and deployment (which also make it cheaper). But the Hog won't double in air combat like the other two will and take on just about anything.

It's all cost/benefit ratio for what you're trying to achieve.

Now I'd send a smaller fleet of starfighter scale frigates rather than K-Wings for the same effect more reliably at a cheaper long term cost, with a higher mission survivability rate on sustained operations.

I think it's a desperation craft, like using X-Wings in place of Star Destroyers. You can get lucky, but don't plan wars on it if you don't have to.

Anyways the serviceability issues with starfighters during operations is the reliance on a centralised fully automated flight computer with no redundancy. This is especially a problem with multicrewed starfighters with complex power distribution requirements.
It also looks to me like 2 crew and 2 gunners are required. The copilot is actually a flight engineer and may not coordinate, without him the whole power grid shorts out as soon as you power up that quad. The gunners are in the ball turrets.

I'd use the mishaps tables for that starship.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A Fitter-K or a Strike Eagle is as good as a Warthog at anti-armour, don't kid yourself about that. They are.

No, no they aren't your only kidding yourself.
As somebody who has called in fire support missions in the first gulf war and the invasion of Iraq all the A-10 had to do was fly overhead and the fight was over, the crews would literally jump out of their AFVs and either surrender or run like the wind.
No other fighter has continually ended fights just by showing up.
I'll take the hog over any other fighter for support thank you very much.
It's never failed me, other fighters have esecially that pos F-14, it was an interceptor not a fighter bomber and its performance proved it to us on the ground time after time.

The k wing never should have gotten the change from what it was in the novel to this super gunship it got transformed into later.
The changes that were made later via NEVG should have been classified as a different ship as they darn near rebuilt the ship from ground up and not being retconned into stupidity.
If I update the two seater it would be to only include a pair of laser cannons for some defense and not what the NEVG and WOTC did to it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyCaine wrote:
Hmmm, true, I can see your point on that one, the A-10 might have been an off comparison, I blame it on being tired... Smile


I have fallen prey to that one more than once myself Smile

Quote:
I'd like to see those stats if you still have them around, as for the K-Wing, I may have to change my views on it, particularly on the turbolaser mounting as looking at it through fresh eyes it is sort of ridiculously overpowered...


The Z-Wing Atmospheric Combat Starfighter

As far as the K-Wing, IMO, if you pull the quad-turbolaser, it becomes more plausible. A laser turret for defense makes sense, and the side-by-side cockpit arrangement is also plausible. Personally, though, I prefer the web-art version of the K-Wing.

Quote:
I whole-heartedly agree about the X-Wing, E-Wing I don't personally like but also agree it's a good multi-role... Now though I'm just more conflicted regarding my skewed view of the K-Wing, and not sure where it will fit into my SWU at this time...


Yeah, the E-Wing is a great fighter stats-wise; it's the art that I don't like. Dark Horse's artists seemed to have forgotten that the ships they were drawing were supposed to operate in space, not atmosphere. For balanced thrust, the engines need to be located as close to the ship's central axis as possible, or at least symmetrically mounted, otherwise, off-center engine thrust will just make the ship do flips in space instead of going anywhere. Between that and the A-9 Vigilance, I think the guys at Dark Horse were either smoking pot or didn't care at all about physics or quality control.

But I digress.

I think the K-Wing still has a definite place. Between it and the B-Wing, the Alliance no longer has a need for Y-Wings. IMC, I've replaced the Y-Wing squadron on front-line starfighter wings with a composite squadron of 6 B-Wings and 6 K-Wings.
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