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New Republic TIE Fighter
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
That's still no guarantee that it wouldn't happen. After all, Seinar is a huge company with galaxy spanning interests. A few lobbyists, some friendly senators, and there you go. A company this size would need to adapt to the changing political landscape of the galaxy, and that means they would find a way to market their product to a different market (namely, the Republic).
And Sienar's competition will also be lobbying and acquiring friendly senators to promote their Republic-friendly designs. So there is no guarantee that Sienar's efforts would be successful. Certainly not until Sienar became a NR company with headquarters and facilities inside the New Republic.

Given the vast number of designs in Star Wars it seems reasonable to assume that new products are the norm rather than the exception. I think that just like arms companies on earth Sienar would design a new product for a new customer rather than just pedalling the same old TIE shaped designs.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Given the vast number of designs in Star Wars it seems reasonable to assume that new products are the norm rather than the exception. I think that just like arms companies on earth Sienar would design a new product for a new customer rather than just pedalling the same old TIE shaped designs.


My theory is that that is part of the attraction. TIEs are a known, proven design, and this upgraded fighter would make use of a lot of the same technology. Techs would need little if any retraining to be able to maintain them, and remanufacturing new fighters out of older models would reduce costs, which would enable Seinar to sell them to the Republic in turn at a reduced cost. In addition, this fighter would be used to free up existing fighter models from fleet duty, making them available for the longer range missions they were designed for, which means the Republic would be getting two new fighters for the price of one. Considering the Republic's reduced military budget compared to the Empire, it would be an attractive offer.
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the New Republic tended to go for more durable fighters. Most TIEs weren't known for their durability, and that has a lot to do with their lacking shields. The NR also tended to go with fighters that offered more in the way of firepower. By which I mean not just lasers but also torps or missiles. And then of course there's the hyperdrive, if the fleet has to retreat and the fighters flying fleet defense aren't hyperdrive equipped then you have to look at either having the enemy get through to you (either because the fighters have to break off defense for recovery or because at least one ship has to remain for recovery) or you have to abandon the fighters.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
But the New Republic tended to go for more durable fighters. Most TIEs weren't known for their durability, and that has a lot to do with their lacking shields. The NR also tended to go with fighters that offered more in the way of firepower. By which I mean not just lasers but also torps or missiles. And then of course there's the hyperdrive, if the fleet has to retreat and the fighters flying fleet defense aren't hyperdrive equipped then you have to look at either having the enemy get through to you (either because the fighters have to break off defense for recovery or because at least one ship has to remain for recovery) or you have to abandon the fighters.


Go back and read the stats for the fighter I posted, based on the TIE/ln. It has a 3D Hull, 1D of shields, a x2 hyperdrive, and a modular missions pod with the option of putting in a concussion missile launcher, as well as a variety of other options, at the cost of a 20% loss of speed (Space 8 instead of 10). The idea is that SFS took the basic TIE and upgraded it to make it more attractive to the Republic by adding all of the above features
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
My theory is that that is part of the attraction. TIEs are a known, proven design, and this upgraded fighter would make use of a lot of the same technology.
But with a 50% increase in hull strength, a x2 hyperdrive, and missiles or other packaged added on as well. And all at a cheaper price too.

Well if that were possible to do it would certainly make it more tempting for the bean counters in the NR. I guess I am just missing why having both sides in suped up TIE fighters is cool though. Confused I like having the two sides in different ships. But clearly you must think it is cool and you have a rationale that let's you justify it, even in the face of the preponderence of the evidence from the EU. Given your stated reverence for the EU canon, that means, to me, that you must think it is very cool indeed. Further debate would be pointless, so - carry on.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
But with a 50% increase in hull strength,


The TIE Interceptor uses essentially the same ball cockpit, with an increase in Hull Strength from 2D to 3D+2, which is an increase of almost 100%. Increase in hull strength could take the form of increased armor, layered redundant backup systems, etc.

Quote:
a x2 hyperdrive


The installation of a hyperdrive is relatively inconsistent in the EU. WEG originally stated that Z-95's couldn't have hyperdrives installed, yet they are featured in the EU as able to have a hyperdrive installed after market. The only consistent standard I can find of whether or not a ship can have a hyperdrive in the SWU is whether or not it is important to the plot. In my campaign, allowing certain ships to be modified with a rudimentary hyperdrive is part of the plot.

For this craft, the aft end of the ball cockpit is extended into a truncated faring that houses the hyperdrive, so it isn't a question of there not being enough room.

Quote:
and missiles or other packaged added on as well.


By moving the lasers out to the wings, it created available space under the pilot at the base of the ball cockpit. It seemed like a good fit to increase the fighter's versatility by using that space to allow fighters to be specifically tailored for special missions, depending on the need.

Quote:
And all at a cheaper price too.


A big part of the cheaper price is achieved by refurbishing existing TIE fighters instead of building them from scratch. Rather than having to spend the money to manufacture a TIE cockpit from scratch, the company takes an existing TIE and upgrades it to the new standard. It uses the same sensors, the same laser cannon, the same basic hull, the same engines, etc.

Quote:
Well if that were possible to do it would certainly make it more tempting for the bean counters in the NR. I guess I am just missing why having both sides in suped up TIE fighters is cool though. :? I like having the two sides in different ships. But clearly you must think it is cool and you have a rationale that let's you justify it, even in the face of the preponderence of the evidence from the EU. Given your stated reverence for the EU canon, that means, to me, that you must think it is very cool indeed.


Looking at EU (specifically the X-Wing novels, where "normal" TIEs are used by the Republic Navy), I would say that there is evidence to suggest that the Rebels are realistic and opportunistic when it comes to where they get their war materiel. For me, it is easy to assume that, with the Republic as the newly emerged dominant power in the galaxy, especially after the events of Dark Empire, a pragmatic business entity like Santhe-Sienar would begin to court them, and to do so in a way that is both cost effective and attractive to their potential "next big customer". The Republic ha already shown that it is willing to use TIEs if they are available, and Santhe-Sienar is offering them a TIE that actually fits into Republic starfighter doctrine. Sienar could potentially even offer to take TIEs already in Republic service and re-manufacture them into S-Wings at a reduced cost. To say that the Republic wouldn't use TIEs because "that's what the bad guys fly" is not supported by evidence in the EU. Granted, the TIE doesn't show up a lot in Republic service, but I can recall no specific mention of it being banned for symbolic or personal reasons.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, let's say the base for this is the TIE/ln rather than building a new fighter from the ground up. Let's use the guidelines in the Sarships of the Galaxy conversion PDF and Galaxy Guide 6. So we're starting off at 60,000 new or 25,000 used. You want a Class II hyerdrive, that's 10,000 credits to install it onto a light frieghter. We multiply that by 1.5 for the miniaturization cost and get 15,000. Then there's the instillation time of 25% of the original cost (not the used cost), that's another 15,000. So the hyperdrive is costing 30,000 credits.

Then there's hull strength, you want to go up by 1D. Thats 20% of the ships original cost, or 12,000

Shields are at 1D, that's 4,000 for a light freighter, miniaturized it's 6,000 credits. Instillation is 5% of the original vehicle cost, which is 3,000. So that's 9,000.

You mentioned reduced speed, we can either rip out the existing engine and replace it with a slower engine or mod it to a slower engine. A sublight drive capable of Space: 8 runs 50,000 for a light freighter and 75,000 for a miniaturized version. Instillation is again off the original vehicle cost is 35% of the vehicles cost. So if we simply mod used TIE/lns that's 8,750, bringing the instillation cost to 83,750. That's not counting the cost to rip out the previous drive. Modding the existing engine down to a Space 8 would be cheaper. It costs 15% of the ship's original cost to increase the sublights by +2, so we can say it should be the same to decrease them by -2. That's 9,000, much cheaper so let's go with that.

So without even getting into weapons, sensors, or redesigning the body we're looking at 60,000 for these changes, exactly the same as it costs to buy a new TIE/ln. And we haven't even added in the cost of the fighter itself. Thus we're talking 85,000 to 120,000 for this fighter.

Nope, I don't see 80,000. I'm sorry. But I just don't
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:
Ok, let's say the base for this is the TIE/ln rather than building a new fighter from the ground up. Let's use the guidelines in the Sarships of the Galaxy conversion PDF and Galaxy Guide 6.


For starters, Tramp Freighters specifically states that their modification rules are for modifying Space Transports only, and that rules for modifying starfighters will be covered in a different book (which ultimately never happened). I haven't looked overly close at the conversion for Starships of the Galaxy, so I will withhold comment.

Quote:
So we're starting off at 60,000 new or 25,000 used. You want a Class II hyerdrive, that's 10,000 credits to install it onto a light frieghter. We multiply that by 1.5 for the miniaturization cost and get 15,000. Then there's the instillation time of 25% of the original cost (not the used cost), that's another 15,000. So the hyperdrive is costing 30,000 credits.


Again, these are based on rules for upgrading space transports. 50% increase for the miniaturization may not cover the fact that this hyperdrive is designed for a smaller vessel, and will not need to generate a hyperdrive field of the same size or energy requirements.

IMC, I introduced a special hyperdrive for Clone Wars era ships like the V-Wing and Eta-2. In essence, this hyperdrive replaces the astromech bay and its associated connections and wiring with a x2 hyperdrive and a limited navcomputer. I'm using the same basic drive for this ship.

Quote:
Then there's hull strength, you want to go up by 1D. Thats 20% of the ships original cost, or 12,000

Shields are at 1D, that's 4,000 for a light freighter, miniaturized it's 6,000 credits. Instillation is 5% of the original vehicle cost, which is 3,000. So that's 9,000.


Again, this is not a light freighter, so the rules would be different.

Quote:
You mentioned reduced speed, we can either rip out the existing engine and replace it with a slower engine or mod it to a slower engine.


Or you could just keep the stock engines and factor in a reduction of speed from 10 to 8 to factor in the power redirected to run the shields, hyperdrive, etc. It doesn't have to be about completely replacing the stock drive to get a lower speed; it could just be about factoring in the effects that added equipment will have on a stock engine.

Quote:
A sublight drive capable of Space: 8 runs 50,000 for a light freighter and 75,000 for a miniaturized version. Instillation is again off the original vehicle cost is 35% of the vehicles cost. So if we simply mod used TIE/lns that's 8,750, bringing the instillation cost to 83,750. That's not counting the cost to rip out the previous drive. Modding the existing engine down to a Space 8 would be cheaper. It costs 15% of the ship's original cost to increase the sublights by +2, so we can say it should be the same to decrease them by -2. That's 9,000, much cheaper so let's go with that.

So without even getting into weapons, sensors, or redesigning the body we're looking at 60,000 for these changes, exactly the same as it costs to buy a new TIE/ln. And we haven't even added in the cost of the fighter itself. Thus we're talking 85,000 to 120,000 for this fighter.

Nope, I don't see 80,000. I'm sorry. But I just don't


I think I mentioned multiple times before this post that this fighter will use stock TIE fighter parts wherever possible, including engines, sensors, laser cannon, etc. I am getting rather tired of repeating myself. Unless Starships of the Galaxy provides specific rules for upgrading starfighters, then any attempt to make up stats and costs for a starfighter will be nothing more than educated guesswork. Even if it does provide such a system, has anyone checked the accuracy of that system against existing starfighter prices to see if it is accurate?

Plus, none of this takes economic factors into account. Even if the prices you quoted from Tramp Freighters were accurate for starfighters, those prices would only be a baseline, as the prices would vary from one system to another, some higher and some lower. In addition, those are price quotes for individual units; who is to say that SFS didn't get a bargain for purchasing parts in bulk?

You suggested a lot of costs and changes, but here is my list for what will be changed and what will stay the same:

Engines: Stock

Cockpit: Modified with faring on aft end to house hyperdrive and fitted with an ejection seat.

Hyperdrive: Basic x2 hyperdrive with minimal nav computer

Maneuvering: Stock

Sensors: Stock

Laser Cannon: Moved to mounts on wing panels, but still use stock TIE lasers

Hull: Increased armor plating, but also redundant backups and other damage control systems to better resist battle damage.

Wing Panels: Modified to fold outward for field landings. Includes installation of retractable landing gear.

Modular Packs: I suppose it would be reasonable to include prices for the individual packs, but as far as space constraints, the housing for the package system replaced the dual laser cannon that were moved out to the wing panels.


Honestly, I'm getting tired of defending this damn thing. If you don't want to use it, don't. But if you do wish to continue debating this craft, there are several points I have had to rehash more than once, which means that some of you are responding without reading the previous posts. I hear that that is a faux pas around here.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
For starters, Tramp Freighters specifically states that their modification rules are for modifying Space Transports only, and that rules for modifying starfighters will be covered in a different book (which ultimately never happened).
That's a fair point. Most of us that have a copy of Tramp Freighters are aware it is designed for Tramp Freighters and not starfighters, but since the starfighter modification supplement was never issued that makes Tramp Freighters the closest thing to an official system for modifying ships. You don't appear to like the results. Fair enough. What are you suggesting one should use to estimate the modifications you propose?

There is a fan-made ship design system. Have you run your proposed ship through that system to see what sort of cost you end up with?
Quote:
IMC, I introduced a special hyperdrive for Clone Wars era ships like the V-Wing and Eta-2. In essence, this hyperdrive replaces the astromech bay and its associated connections and wiring with a x2 hyperdrive and a limited navcomputer. I'm using the same basic drive for this ship.
I would think a special hyperdrive would be more expensive than a normal starfighter hyperdrive. So who makes this special hyperdrive and what does this special hyperdrive cost?
Quote:
Again, this is not a light freighter, so the rules would be different.
True enough. Given the small size and corresponding tightness of a starfigher frame I would guess that modifications to a starfighter are more difficult than to a light freighter (which has the option of sacrficing cargo space to gain space for new systems). Starfighters are high performance vehicles. In the real world it is more difficult and costly to modify or repair a sports car than to modify or repair a normal car. I suspect the same holds true of starfighters. In addition, unlike some guy and his Wookiee making unlicensed and sometimes undependable modifications, Sienar has real engineers running a project to create a significantly improved fighter on the old TIE framework. This new ship needs to include more durability to the modifications than would be typical for most light freighter mods. In the real world it is quite frequently more expensive to extensively modify than to build a new vehicle. Just using stock parts ignores what would likely be an expensive redesign project.

You are correct there is no official mechanism for modifying starfighters. Some people use the tramp freighter rules and I know there is at least one fan made system that has some favorable comments. Did you price your ship using that system. If not, what system did you use to arrive at a price?
Quote:
Or you could just keep the stock engines and factor in a reduction of speed from 10 to 8 to factor in the power redirected to run the shields, hyperdrive, etc. It doesn't have to be about completely replacing the stock drive to get a lower speed; it could just be about factoring in the effects that added equipment will have on a stock engine.
I agree that seems a more reasonable solution. Engineers would still have to run new power conduits, switches, and such and create connections to the shield generator and the modular hookups, but I agree that would be considerably cheaper than installing a whole new engine.
Quote:
I think I mentioned multiple times before this post that this fighter will use stock TIE fighter parts wherever possible, including engines, sensors, laser cannon, etc. I am getting rather tired of repeating myself. Unless Starships of the Galaxy provides specific rules for upgrading starfighters, then any attempt to make up stats and costs for a starfighter will be nothing more than educated guesswork. Even if it does provide such a system, has anyone checked the accuracy of that system against existing starfighter prices to see if it is accurate?
I have not. Have you? It is your modification afterall.
Quote:
In addition, those are price quotes for individual units; who is to say that SFS didn't get a bargain for purchasing parts in bulk?
That makes sense. Sienar should be able to get a significant discount on parts compared to what an individual would pay. A simple rule of thumb for prices is that at each stage in the distribution chain the price goes up 100%. So if it costs the manufacturer x to make a part, the wholesaler will pay 2x to the maufacturer, the retailer will pay the wholesaler 4x, and the end customer will pay 8x. Sienar would buy direct from the manufacturer and would get the part for around 2x. So they are paying maybe 1/4 what a private individual would have to pay.
Quote:
Engines: Stock
Still need to add some cost for new fittings to connect the engine power source to the shields and the modular package.
Quote:
Cockpit: Modified with faring on aft end to house hyperdrive and fitted with an ejection seat.
Question And the cost for this would be?
Quote:
Hyperdrive: Basic x2 hyperdrive with minimal nav computer
Question And the cost for this would be?
Quote:
Maneuvering: Stock
Sensors: Stock
OK.
Quote:
Laser Cannon: Moved to mounts on wing panels, but still use stock TIE lasers.
Hull: Increased armor plating, but also redundant backups and other damage control systems to better resist battle damage.
The cost of these changes was included in the new design for the TIE Interceptor. We don't know how much that sort of tinkering would cost on a TIE.
Quote:
Wing Panels: Modified to fold outward for field landings. Includes installation of retractable landing gear.
Question And the cost for this would be? Folding wings and aftermarket landing gear sounds like it might be prone to glitches.
Quote:
Modular Packs: I suppose it would be reasonable to include prices for the individual packs, but as far as space constraints, the housing for the package system replaced the dual laser cannon that were moved out to the wing panels.
The ability to plug and play multiple systems would require some modification and some new cost.

You should also include some cost for the redesign itself. That kind of project can be quite costly, though if Sienar is successful they can spread the cost across many ships. Given that this has many of the capabilities of other TIEs and some abilities that no canon TIEs have, it would seem some of the more advanced and expensive TIEs (like the TIE Interceptor) would be a better starting point in cost than the TIE/in.
Quote:
Honestly, I'm getting tired of defending this d*mn thing. If you don't want to use it, don't. But if you do wish to continue debating this craft, there are several points I have had to rehash more than once, which means that some of you are responding without reading the previous posts. I hear that that is a faux pas around here.
When you propose a significantly improved and modified fighter for no or low additional cost over a simple TIE, people understandably question the feasibility of your design. You assert that this would be cheaper than other existing starfighters, but you don't appear to have used the Tramp Freighters modification rules, the fan made system for building and costing ships to arrive at a cost. Nor have you even compared the cost to existing ships with similar capabilities. And then you become frustrated at us when we question your unsupported assertions.

If you want to use it, do. But if you want to continue debating this craft, you might want to provide some kind of support for your low cost assumption.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Tramp Freighters book doesn't really work for changing the specifics of an already existing design and building the new ships from the ground up. Also, every price in it is a consumer price, but it would be a quite safe assumption that whoever Sienar buys their parts from doesn't charge Sienar a full consumer price.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
You are correct there is no official mechanism for modifying starfighters. Some people use the tramp freighter rules and I know there is at least one fan made system that has some favorable comments. Did you price your ship using that system. If not, what system did you use to arrive at a price?


I designed the starfighter, then based the price on the backstory that I had written up for it.

Quote:
I have not. Have you? It is your modification afterall.


I did not. In fact, I don't think I ever have. I just came up with the idea for the ship, looked up the stats on the original TIE/ln and went from there.

Quote:
If you want to use it, do. But if you want to continue debating this craft, you might want to provide some kind of support for your low cost assumption.


The cost of a brand-new TIE is 60,000, which is what Hellcat based his price calculation on, but the cost of a used TIE fighter is 25,000. Therefore, taking used TIEs and refurbishing them to the new standard (which is what Sienar is doing for this project) allows room for up to 55,000 credits worth of modification. That means Sienar is taking a used vehicle and putting over twice the "Blue Book" value back into each individual fighter (minus their overhead). I've never bothered with the fan-built starship construction system; it always seemed simpler to just design a stat and guesstimate to get the result one wishes. If it is important to the plot that a ship have a hyperdrive, then there is room for it. Period. In this case, I designed the stat to fit what I wanted it to do, including be a bargain. IMO, 55,000 of modifications to a used starfighter is more than enough to cover the modifications I have suggested.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
The cost of a brand-new TIE is 60,000, which is what Hellcat based his price calculation on, but the cost of a used TIE fighter is 25,000. Therefore, taking used TIEs and refurbishing them to the new standard (which is what Sienar is doing for this project) allows room for up to 55,000 credits worth of modification. That means Sienar is taking a used vehicle and putting over twice the "Blue Book" value back into each individual fighter (minus their overhead). I've never bothered with the fan-built starship construction system; it always seemed simpler to just design a stat and guesstimate to get the result one wishes. If it is important to the plot that a ship have a hyperdrive, then there is room for it. Period. In this case, I designed the stat to fit what I wanted it to do, including be a bargain. IMO, 55,000 of modifications to a used starfighter is more than enough to cover the modifications I have suggested.
OK. That would have been helpful to know from the beginning.

I still think the cost is unreasonably cheap. Making old vehicles like new tends to be very expensive, but I see where that's a requrement for your idea to work.

I also think politically it would be an extremely tough sell to persuade the NR to "hand over the hard earned wages of newly freed sentients to further enrich the bloated coffers of a company that helped oppress them in the first place - and earned obscene profits in doing so. And all those self same sentients will get in exchange is the same old symbol of Imperial oppression - with anew paint job. We all know freedom is not free, but Gentlebeings I ask you, what price liberty?"

And that would be just the start of the talking points used by the lobbyists and supporters of Republic Engineering Corporation (note the name choice) and Sienar's other competitors. Wink

Maybe what you need is a Sith to help Sienar "persuade" a few New Republic Senators. It seems like a tactic Palpatine would have enjoyed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I just don't see it that way. The Republic might have some reservations, but the one constant in politics is strange bedfellows; your worst enemy today may be your closest ally tomorrow. It all depends on circumstances and common interests.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with outside military hardware suppliers is they could boycott you aka stop supplying you with said hardware if things go against you.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I've never bothered with the fan-built starship construction system; it always seemed simpler to just design a stat and guesstimate to get the result one wishes.

Just as a word of caution, I think that's exactly how WEG came up with all the strange stats like the Strike cruiser that you and others have complained about on these forums. Not to say don't do it, just be careful.
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System
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