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Dueling Sabers Feedback & Discussion
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, just for the sake of completeness...

    Lightsaber

    Time Taken: Varies; one round or one standard action, depending on circumstances.

    -When engaging in a Lightsaber duel, Lightsaber is a full-round action, and covers a full round spent attacking and parrying an opponent's saber. Engaging in a duel counts double for MAP purposes (+2D instead of +1D). This also applies to duels with weapons other than lightsabers that are protected from lightsaber damage.

    -When parrying blaster bolts or simple, "non-protected" melee weapons, it counts as a standard action. Unprotected melee weapons take full Damage from the Lightsaber on a successful Parry, and are almost always instantly destroyed.

    Description: Lightsaber is the "Melee Combat" skill used for the lightsaber, the weapon of the famed Jedi Knights.

    Lightsaber can also be used as a "reaction skill" against lightsaber, melee and brawling attacks. Force users may also use lightsabers in reaction to ranged attacks, but only through use of the Combat Sense Force power. It is effectively impossible for a character to block blaster shots without the Force.

    While a very powerful weapon, a lightsaber is dangerous to an unskilled user - if an attacking character misses the base Difficulty by 10 or more points, then the character has injured himself with the weapon and rolls damage against his own Strength.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I think I've finally had a breakthrough on how to do the bonus for Form IV. While all the other forms had pretty clear emphasis along attack vs. defense or melee combat vs. ranged combat, Form IV's emphasis on blending movement and combat didn't have a clear parallel to the D6's attack vs. react combat system.

What I'm thinking is that, for every 1D in (A) Form IV, the Jedi gets a +1D modifier to the Base Difficulty to hit them, regardless of the type of attack. For instance, if an Ataru adept has 4D in (A) Form IV, and they are attacked by a lightsaber-wielding Sith, the Sith's Base Difficulty on Lightsaber is increased by +4D.

In essence, it grants a minor Full Dodge to the Form IV adept as a free action, as a result of their constantly being in motion. Not much of one, compared to the how high Dodge skills can get, but a pretty potent bonus under the right circumstances.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the GM rolls 4D and adds that to 20, and if the attackers roll is less than the total, its a whiff, regardless of the Ataru user's roll?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
So the GM rolls 4D and adds that to 20, and if the attackers roll is less than the total, its a whiff, regardless of the Ataru user's roll?

No, the Ataru adept would only have to react to attacks that beat the Base Difficulty. So the attacker rolls against 20+4D. If he whiffs, the Ataru user doesn’t have to roll to parry. If the attacker hits, the adept rolls Lightsaber to defend as normal.

In retrospect, though, this should be a standard action for MAP purposes, not a free action.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This would also fit into the “Obi-wan dodges” scene in TPM.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I'm redoing this in a different thread, but I want to save this one for discussions and first drafts.

Something I'd like to include is some way for the combatants to engineer scene changes, much like how Vader and Maul controlled their duels in ESB and TPM by leading the fight to a location where they gain a tactical advantage. There is actually an official name for this: Sokan, essentially Tactics for Jedi lightsaber duels.

At the moment, I'm considering making Sokan an Advanced Skill, with Lightsaber and Tactics as prerequisites. I have some thoughts as to how to structure this, such as Sokan roll on a chart where success triggers a scene change, where the terrain may prove more advantageous to one or the other, and modifiers to the Sokan roll on that chart based on the Jedi's familiarity with the area, such as +0D if the Sokan adept is unfamiliar, +1D if the Adept has had the opportunity to explore the area uninterrupted, and +2D if the Adept is intimately familiar with the area (such as a place they've lived or worked for a long time).

I'm pretty tired right now, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends on how you interpret Sokan in the lore.

If you interpret Sokan as an approach to combat, or as a combat philosophy, rather than a set of techniques and specialized moves, then I think it makes sense to make Sokan a tactics-based skill.

If you think of Sokan as a true lightsaber form, as having a distinct set of moves and maneuvers, then it may be more appropriate to make it a combat (weapon) skill, and give it increased bonuses for tactical (read: terrain) advantages. In such a case, you would need to incorporate some kind of terrain rules that anyone could use, and then decide how a Sokan adept would be better (bigger bonus/smaller penalty for specific tactical situations).

As for the philosophical approach, why not just use something similar to the idea you posted in the other thread about tactics (that is, situational bonuses), and just make Sokan a specialization of the tactics skill?

If you think of Sokan as a move set, you could make it so that the Sokan adept gains benefits for maneuvering in the same turn as making an attack or a parry.

Anyway, you have email.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sustained Attack
A lightsaber can be used to make a full round attack by simply keeping the blade in contact with the target. This causes cumulative damage based on the Coordination rules (depending on what system you use) up to a maximum of +5D. However, the heat bloom caused by the sustained damage can potentially injure the Jedi as well (apply the Coordination dice result against the Jedi's Strength roll). [/b]


I would go for existing rule for Portable Plasma Cutter - takes automatically 1D of hull/hardness/body strength per round. So blast doors with 6D would go in 6 rounds.

Since lightsabers are much more powerful and Qui Gon was cutting through a single set of blast doors with ease (1 or 2 rounds) such damage should be greater - up to GM decision - maybe 2 or 3D per round.

Quote:
Combat Sense
-The adept can use Sense + the Combat Sense bonus to parry ranged attacks attacks at a base Difficulty of Very Easy for simple, muscle-powered attacks (arrows, thrown knives, rocks, etc) or Easy for propelled weapons (Firearms, Blasters, Bowcasters, etc). The Difficulty is modified by the number of simultaneous attacks made (standard MAP rules apply).


MAP is for Jedi here for each additional shot?

Quote:
On a successful Parry, the adept must make an additional Sense roll (subject to normal MAPs) against the range to the target (using the base range of the weapon being deflected) and the target's reaction roll. The blaster bolt's damage stays the same.


Have you considered just the base range difficulty for this? It's a precognition based power, just a Jedi sees the path of a bolt (shooter skill does not matter), a path of a target's dodge is also revealed...

In previous discussion there were deflection arcs mentioned (topic: difficulty to parry a blaster bolt). You plan to add it or just dropped the idea as too lethal?[/quote]
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
I would go for existing rule for Portable Plasma Cutter - takes automatically 1D of hull/hardness/body strength per round. So blast doors with 6D would go in 6 rounds.

Since lightsabers are much more powerful and Qui Gon was cutting through a single set of blast doors with ease (1 or 2 rounds) such damage should be greater - up to GM decision - maybe 2 or 3D per round.

I considered that, but I wanted there to be a hard cap on it, otherwise you could conceivably take out a Star Destroyer just by holding your lightsaber against the Hull for two minutes (24 rounds = 12D Capital-Scale Damage). I also wanted there to be a slope up in Time Taken, so that at the upper end, you're looking at minutes or more needed to finally cut through the thing, assuming you can cut through at all.

Also, damage is additionally boosted by how the blade is placed (the RoE Accuracy Damage rule). For the door-cutting scene in TPM, I'd argue Qui-gon rolled Lightsaber against the base Difficulty to generate an accuracy damage bonus that stacked with the lightsaber's base damage, with cumulative damage stacking on top of that.

Quote:
MAP is for Jedi here for each additional shot?

Correct.

Quote:
Have you considered just the base range difficulty for this? It's a precognition based power, just a Jedi sees the path of a bolt (shooter skill does not matter), a path of a target's dodge is also revealed...

I hadn't, but on reflection, I don't ever recall seeing a target even attempt to Dodge when a deflected blaster bolt came back at them. Should they be allowed to Dodge at a penalty, or not at all? I can see the Cover modifiers coming into play, certainly...

Quote:
In previous discussion there were deflection arcs mentioned (topic: difficulty to parry a blaster bolt). You plan to add it or just dropped the idea as too lethal?

I just hadn't included it yet. The Dueling Sabers project is focused more on lightsaber vs. lightsaber combat, but I can tack that onto it for the sack of completeness.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I think it depends on how you interpret Sokan in the lore.

Based on what I've read, Sokan is all of the above. It requires an understanding of the strength and weaknesses of each of the various Forms, a general knowledge of tactics and terrain, and practical training as to how to use lightsaber combat to shape the battle, either by forcing an opponent to move in the direction you desire based on how and where you attack, or by thwarting an opponent's attempts to shift the battle to a location that favors them.

I'm leaning very strongly toward making it an Advanced Skill with both Tactics and Lightsaber as prerequisites. I'm still wrangling with how to incorporate the "scene change" rules into the system, but one thing that is clear is that having time to scout and familiarize with the battlefield beforehand will provide a clear advantage. In the on-screen examples of this, both Maul and Vader had time to choose their battleground and plan their strategy around it, while their opponents were coming at it fresh.

Also, writing up Sokan to incorporate the Tactics skill as an integral part of advanced lightsaber combat finally offers an explanation as to why Jedi were default generals of the Grand Army of the Republic; the principles of Sokan could be applied to tactical situations in general.

Quote:
Anyway, you have email.

Headed there now.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another advanced skill I want to write up is the Art of Movement. I'm considering folding the principles of Trispzest into it, as well, with the goal of an overarching Form that covers combining Movement and Combat.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
Since lightsabers are much more powerful and Qui Gon was cutting through a single set of blast doors with ease (1 or 2 rounds)

For clarification, there were three blast doors in the set. He began cutting through the first one fairly easy, but never finished before they closed the other two. Then he pushed for more time and still hadn't gotten through before the droidekas showed up. For the set, his unfinished attempt to get through went on for more than two rounds.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Darklighter79 wrote:
I would go for existing rule for Portable Plasma Cutter - takes automatically 1D of hull/hardness/body strength per round. So blast doors with 6D would go in 6 rounds.

Since lightsabers are much more powerful and Qui Gon was cutting through a single set of blast doors with ease (1 or 2 rounds) such damage should be greater - up to GM decision - maybe 2 or 3D per round.

I considered that, but I wanted there to be a hard cap on it, otherwise you could conceivably take out a Star Destroyer just by holding your lightsaber against the Hull for two minutes (24 rounds = 12D Capital-Scale Damage). I also wanted there to be a slope up in Time Taken, so that at the upper end, you're looking at minutes or more needed to finally cut through the thing, assuming you can cut through at all.

That actually makes sense. On Star Wars Rebels, a teenaged Force student of an aging padawan quickly cut through the outer Star Destroyer hull like it was butter to get inside. One of the great many things about the cartoons that immediately disintegrates my disbelief suspension that the show takes place in the same universe as the films.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, that's not as unreasonable as it would seem. Even a ship like an ISD isn't going to have uniformly heavy armor everywhere, and the RoE Accuracy Damage rule is designed to represent that. If the character in question picked the right spot, and if their goal was just to cut through the Hull to gain access (as opposed to doing damage to the ship), I'd probably allow it. It just wouldn't happen fast.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
It just wouldn't happen fast.

The speed of was the most unreasonable part. It was literally like cutting butter. From another ship attached to the outer hull, he quickly cuts a large circle into it in about 2 seconds, and it falls into a hallway. The hole was big enough for a big Lesat to get through. And they did this without space suits, just filling their airlock with air and trusting the seal would keep during this violent entry. I couldn't find a video of it, but it reminded me a lot of this:

Robin's lightsaber
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I considered that, but I wanted there to be a hard cap on it, otherwise you could conceivably take out a Star Destroyer just by holding your lightsaber against the Hull for two minutes (24 rounds = 12D Capital-Scale Damage). I also wanted there to be a slope up in Time Taken, so that at the upper end, you're looking at minutes or more needed to finally cut through the thing, assuming you can cut through at all.


I do not think that dropping fusion cutter on the ground would eventually mean the destruction of an entire planet. That's not WEG had in mind when designing this rule. Likewise, crazy Emperor with FP use, would not be a threat to planet continent by attacking rock formation on a beach with LSC power. He would damage...only some portion of the rock. Same with detonite rule (RAW):
Quote:
The most common explosive is detonite, and a fist sized cube
does 1D speeder-scale damage. The damage in the charts below
is figured for one cube of detonite. Additional detonite cubes
increase the base damage by +1D.

No limit. But it does not mean that if I combine 1000 charges it "will spell certain doom for the" planet.

So if Jedi plunged a lightsaber into the hull of ISD, it would only mean that
melting some small amount of it. With no damage to ship's systems, as well as structural integrity to ISD's hull that would have to be represented in starship combat. It's like punching one's finger with a needle - it won't qualify for stunned effect.

Anyway, in case of any doubts, be mindful of your signature. 8)

Quote:

I hadn't, but on reflection, I don't ever recall seeing a target even attempt to Dodge when a deflected blaster bolt came back at them. Should they be allowed to Dodge at a penalty, or not at all? I can see the Cover modifiers coming into play, certainly...

Cover - maybe. I meant a situation of tense combat with larger groups. The attacker set his dodge because he is targeted by other characters. And there comes a Jedi deflected shot.
I considered using quick draw damage rules for deflected shot (inspired by Luke vs goons and Fett), but then I saw again a scene in AotC in which Obi Wan deflected a shot, which took out B2's arm. It paused it only for a second. So I think it would be too much.

Quote:
I just hadn't included it yet. The Dueling Sabers project is focused more on lightsaber vs. lightsaber combat, but I can tack that onto it for the sack of completeness.


Ok. In my version I was focusing on deflection/redirect only so far.
So it looks like this:

Deflect/Redirect

Deflect:
Jedi extends his senses into near future to block incoming ranged attacks with a lightsaber.
Sense difficulty*: 1 shot - very easy (1-5). Modified by:+3 to the difficulty per each additional shot in a round. +5 for each additional arc, up to +15 for four arcs. All concealment penalties do not apply

Example 1: Jedi attempt to deflect four shots from one arc. GM sets the difficulty at 13 (Base difficulty 4 and +3 for each additional shot). Jedi makes Sense roll with result of 11. This is enough to deflect 3 shots, but the fourth one hits.

Redirect
Jedi may control where deflected shot goes. For each 3 points above base difficulty of each shot, one can be redirected.
Example 2: Let’s return to above mentioned situation. Jedi rolled 11. This is enough to redirect only the first and second shot as its difficulty would be 4 and 7 respectively. Third shot was deflected in random direction and the fourth one hit.

Force guided deflection cannot be dodged by non force sensitive, just like Projected Fighting. Roll sense skill against a proper weapon range modifier to see it the target was hit (additional attack subject to MAP).

*Base difficulty for this power may change depending of the balance of the Force, as the Dark Side clouds Jedi’s senses. It’s up to GM base level of difficulty for a specific time period, location and situation. (AotC scenes with Obi Wan vs Droidekas, Coleman vs Jango, and all the Jedi in the arena battle, Order 66, ect.)

Jedi may use any other weapon/item to block incoming shots, but then roll the damage against held object.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Some word of explanation:

Why only Sense skill for deflect?
- Because only this determines the success. As Obi Wan taught “This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct”. LS is a physical skill taught to control weapon in combat.
- I wanted to remove the following flaw. As per RAW, if LSC power is active, someone with LS 3D and Sense 7D is as good at deflection as someone with LS 7D and Sense 3D.
- The dice bucket is smaller Wink


Whill wrote:
For clarification, there were three blast doors in the set. He began cutting through the first one fairly easy, but never finished before they closed the other two. Then he pushed for more time and still hadn't gotten through before the droidekas showed up. For the set, his unfinished attempt to get through went on for more than two rounds.

Yes, my example was for a single set (6D). Triple set (18D) would take of course much longer - like 9 rounds if rule of 2D per round applied.

Quote:
That actually makes sense. On Star Wars Rebels, a teenaged Force student of an aging padawan quickly cut through the outer Star Destroyer hull like it was butter to get inside. One of the great many things about the cartoons that immediately disintegrates my disbelief suspension that the show takes place in the same universe as the films.


I could not find that scene, but I remember that there was similar scene in Clone Wars.
I think it's a bug with this hull thickness, although it seems there was a two-layers of hull.

Check the Star Wars: Clone Wars - they needed access through the hatch. Look how thick was hull in that place. Much more realistic.
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