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Absorb/Dissipate as a Reaction Skill
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:58 am    Post subject: Absorb/Dissipate as a Reaction Skill Reply with quote

Even though the RAW pretty much ignores the idea of Force skills being used for Reaction (apart from Lightsaber Combat), we do see Vader use Absorb/Dissipate as a reaction to blaster bolts in ESB. So what else can A/D do? Can someone with AD parry a lightsaber with their bare hands? If so, do they roll only against the lightsaber's 5D damage or against the combined Lightsaber and Control of the wielder?
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the Lightsaber parry case, roll against the full effective damage, ie Lightsaber Damage plus Control bonus.

Perhaps another way to do this is to make it possible to 'keep up' the force power.

Othewise, regarding Reaction force powers, one has to start with ones view of force powers. In the RAW force powers are almost like spells in fantasy games in the sense that the character need to plan in advance to use force powers. I always like the idea that the use of force powers should be more inituitive as the Jedi master them. Having a few levels of mastery (3-4) for force powers might solve this. The higher level of mastery, the more inituitive force use, where the highest level might let you use the power as a reaction skill.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
I always like the idea that the use of force powers should be more inituitive as the Jedi master them. Having a few levels of mastery (3-4) for force powers might solve this. The higher level of mastery, the more inituitive force use, where the highest level might let you use the power as a reaction skill.


IMO, a more "D6-ish" approach would be to simply make the powers available intuitively, but a higher difficulty levels. The character's level of mastery would be defined by higher dice levels.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the D6 system really doesn't mechanically prohibit ANY skill from being a reaction skill. In our games, it's not far fetched to use blaster as a reaction skill (albeit at a significant penalty). "He's shooting at me? I shoot him first!" Okay, that's a little far fetched, but certain Force powers we just use as reactions:

Absorb/Dissipate and Telekinesis are the most obvious ones.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Well, the D6 system really doesn't mechanically prohibit ANY skill from being a reaction skill. In our games, it's not far fetched to use blaster as a reaction skill (albeit at a significant penalty). "He's shooting at me? I shoot him first!" Okay, that's a little far fetched, but certain Force powers we just use as reactions:

Absorb/Dissipate and Telekinesis are the most obvious ones.


Exactly; it's more that WEG doesn't mention them when it lists skills that can be used as reaction skills, so some people have used that lack of mention equals a deliberate exclusion.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being it says you must be able to activate it before the shot lands i could easily see changing that wording a little, to you can do so after a shot lands, but before soak/damage is rolled.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just see "before the shot lands" as meaning that you can either try to dodge or use the power. Failure of the control roll equals normal damage. Simple.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The RAW do describe several skills as being reaction skills only. Given the nature of that section, it doesn't explicitly say which skills can not be used as a reaction, though it is only a matter of drawing the logical conclusion that if only a small set of defensive skills can be used as reactions, then no other skills can be.

I'm rather surprised to see you say what is "more D6-ish" then the rules, crmcneill. It seems to imply a subjectivity applied to what is D6, when you don't seem to much like that sort of subjectivity applied to cannon. Usually when you suggest rule changes you seem more apt to suggest that the new rule would better represent cannon, not D6. Note that this isn't a criticism, by any means, just an observation.

Though I understand the nature of why one would think that Vader used A/D Energy as a reaction, I don't think that's necessarily the case. True, the door opens, Han has a moment of surprise, and he draws his blaster and opens fire. Though Vader would by no means be surprised. He knows that Han and Chewie are coming into the room, he also knows that they're not the "come along quietly" sort of people. Vader's not a complete moron. Han is armed and at a distance. He'd be stupid not to have A/D Energy up for when the blasters start going, and/or lightsaber combat to deflect them.

I'm going to defend the notion of using only those skills explicitly labeled as reaction skills. Why? Nothing short of game balance. Though I can understand the use of the "draw my blaster and shoot 'em first," such a thing should probably only be used as a quick draw duel, where both people are trying to get to their blasters first.

When we get to Force powers, it only makes sense for them to be prepared before their use to keep Jedi from ruling the game. There is already a problem of trying to keep a balance between competent Jedi and non-Jedi in the game. Making the powers more accessible only widens that divide. A/D Energy seems like a likely candidate to be a reaction skill. I would think about giving that option to a character in very select instances.[/b]
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Last edited by cheshire on Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Being it says you must be able to activate it before the shot lands i could easily see changing that wording a little, to you can do so after a shot lands, but before soak/damage is rolled.


Hehe, we are going into MtG semantics..

-Ok, I go into the soak/damage phase, any reactions to that?

Better to make it a kept up power and be done with it.

Reaction skills are a bit iffy if you take them literally... In my games you must be aware of the attack to use a reaction skill.

With that in mind I would allow a reaction C/D energy as long as the character knows he is being attacked. Sure, it might not be 'realistic' for someone to activate a force power during the time it takes for the blaster bolt to travel 5 meters, but that goes of dodges too...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I'm rather surprised to see you say what is "more D6-ish" then the rules, crmcneill. It seems to imply a subjectivity applied to what is D6, when you don't seem to much like that sort of subjectivity applied to cannon. Usually when you suggest rule changes you seem more apt to suggest that the new rule would better represent cannon, not D6. Not that this isn't a criticism, by any means, just an observation.


Cheshire, you missed my point. The core of the WEG D6 system is "pick a difficulty level and roll the appropriate skill or attribute against it." While ZzaphodD's idea of Master level abilities is intriguing, IMO, it would ultimately boil down to "you can't perform this action unless you have a skill level of #D or higher." Some people are OK with that, and that's fine. To me, however, it is introducing a new and foreign mechanic into a system that already has its own mechanic. Specifically, rather than Master level abilities, a "more D6-ish" approach would be to put Master level abilities at higher difficulty levels, so that they are out of reach of lower level characters unless those characters choose to spend FPs or CPs.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I just see "before the shot lands" as meaning that you can either try to dodge or use the power. Failure of the control roll equals normal damage. Simple.


I have seen some gms who allow a dodge.. screw it up then you go to ab/dis.. frak that as well, then you go soak. To me that is giving them one more step in avoiding damage that non force users have.. and has ramped up combat capacity of jedi something fierce in those games.

With ME, if you use ab/dis, i am leaning to making it that if the roll fails, you GET NO SOAK.
Since the power does say
"Effect: This power allows the Jedi to absorb or dissipate
energy, including light, heat, radiation and blaster bolts. A
successful control roll means that the energy is dissipated. If
the user fails the roll, she takes full damage from the energy."

Underlined for the part i reason they should not get a soak roll..
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
"...If the user fails the roll, she takes full damage from the energy."

Underlined for the part i reason they should not get a soak roll..
You are misreading the rule. It is not saying no soak roll. If it were, it would clearly say so. It is just saying that if the Jedi fails the roll there is no lessening of the damage due to the attempt to use the power. The power either blocks all the damage or blocks none of the damage. If the roll is failed, then roll the full (undecreased) damage vs. the character's normal soak. Just as if the power had never been attempted. Really the language here is pretty unambiguous.

However if you want to add a lot of danger to the Jedi who tries to absorb/dissipate because you see her as pulling the energy into her body before trying to absorb and dissipate it so that, as a house rule, no soak roll is allowed, that is of course your perogative. But in that case we are in the wrong section of the forum. Wink

I can see the Jedi using both dodge and absorb/dissipate energy, though I don't particularly like it. From the films when someone is using a/d they need to be standing pretty still, concentrating on the a/d, and flowing the energy around or away from them via some nifty hand gestures - at least that's what we see in the films. If the GM allows the Jedi to both dodge and use a/d that will mean, at a minimum, there is a -1D MAP on both the dodge and the absorb/dissipate rolls. In addition, I would be inclined to make the a/d difficulty Difficult rather than Moderate. From a stats perspective trying to do both may well cause you to fail both. You may need the extra D you lose from the MAPs.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
With ME, if you use ab/dis, i am leaning to making it that if the roll fails, you GET NO SOAK.
Since the power does say
"Effect: This power allows the Jedi to absorb or dissipate
energy, including light, heat, radiation and blaster bolts. A
successful control roll means that the energy is dissipated. If
the user fails the roll, she takes full damage from the energy."

Underlined for the part i reason they should not get a soak roll..


This seems totally crazy. No one will ever use the power, given that its not that effective vs attacks to begin with.. Its also a redefinition of the damage system, which is totally ok but not the intention of the power.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
This seems totally crazy. No one will ever use the power, given that its not that effective vs attacks to begin with.. Its also a redefinition of the damage system, which is totally ok but not the intention of the power.


I agree. There should be degrees of success, so that maybe a Jedi can absorb part of the energy, even if he doesn't absorb all of it. Maybe something along the lines of Bren's graduated damage results for his Lightsaber Combat variant...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Z's "totally crazy" was in response to garhkal's proposal that failure to absorb/dissipate all the energy resulted in the Jedi not getting any STR resistance roll at all. Not to the original RAW for a/d.

According to the RAW absorb/dissipate energy is already either all or nothing. I wouldn't call that crazy, but then I wouldn't say I prefer that result either. It might be nice if even failure provided some advantage. And because I know that both C and G like tables, here is one. Wink Maybe something like:

Success = no damage
Fail by 1-5 Roll damage vs. STR normally, maximum damage = wounded
Fail by 6-10 Roll damage vs. STR normally, maximum damage = incapacitated
Fail by 11-15 Roll damage vs. STR normally, maximum damage = mortally wounded
Fail by 16+ Roll damage vs. STR normally, maximum damage = dead
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