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The Bowcaster... underpowered? My take on it.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furthermore, there are scenes where the director deliberately instructed the actors to simulate recoil with the blasters, so, at least for me and the way I run things, blasters recoil (for whatever reason) in my SWU.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree tha 4D for Wookiie Bowcaster is weak. I just ran a scenerio and using the Rules Upgrade, I defelcted back unto my son's Wookiee his bolt. The wookiee is 5D STR and assuming that the bowcaster does speeder damage, I roll 6D. The wookiee soaked the roll!

One idea I had though is that if the Wookiee wants to use the bolt, the bolt does 6D but can only be ROF . However if the bowcaster is to be fired multiple times in a round, then it only fires it blaster component and does 4D.

Thoughts?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, sure. If that's what you like. I rather feel that the wookiee's strength warrants a more powerful "signature" weapon.

My own thoughts are already in this thread, but for a quick rehash, I'd prefer to limit the bowcaster via ammo capacity rather than round by round rate of fire.

Your idea does strike a happy medium, if you feel that 6D is too strong.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Yeah, sure. If that's what you like. I rather feel that the wookiee's strength warrants a more powerful "signature" weapon.

My own thoughts are already in this thread, but for a quick rehash, I'd prefer to limit the bowcaster via ammo capacity rather than round by round rate of fire.

Your idea does strike a happy medium, if you feel that 6D is too strong.


Actually another wookiee player felt 6D was too strong! But I can see it being 6D.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That raises an interesting point. Wookiees are tough because they have to be; they live on a planet populated by things that can hunt and kill Wookiees (and this includes other Wookiees). If Wookiees' average Strength is 5D, and a bowcaster is a traditional hunting and defensive weapon, 4D is badly underpowered and 6D is barely adequate when you consider its targets include Wookiees and things that eat Wookies.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wookies are iirc not ave at 5d for npcs though...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wookies are iirc not ave at 5d for npcs though...

So you're saying that Wookiees only need concern themselves with the threat posed by weakling members of their own species?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the cultural importance of the bowcaster parallels the Minutemen of early American history. The primary advantages of the Wookiee race in the ecology of Kashyyyk are their toolmaking abilities (whether bowcaster or building fortified cities in treetops) and their ability to cooperate and form complex social groups. Humans have the same advantages, but the threat level is an order of magnitude higher on Kashyyyk than on Earth. As such, when faced with the threat of natural predators that view even Wookiees as an afternoon snack, their best defense is a cooperative one, with every eligible member of the community armed and prepared to come to the community's defense at a moment's notice.

The Wookiee Hrrtayyk ceremony, where an adolescent Wookiee builds a bowcaster, then hunts and kills a Katarn with it, demonstrates that Wookiee's readiness and ability to provide for the community by hunting for food, and to defend it from attack.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wookies are iirc not ave at 5d for npcs though...

So you're saying that Wookiees only need concern themselves with the threat posed by weakling members of their own species?


No, i am saying when you gauge whether's something is deadly or not, that you shouldn't look at the PC's of that race as the ave, but the rest of the race..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
i am saying when you gauge whether's something is deadly or not, that you shouldn't look at the PC's of that race as the ave, but the rest of the race..

Well, if humans are any indicator, with a minimum Strength of 2D, weapons designed by humans to defend against / kill other humans have a 2D-3D damage advantage (blaster pistols and rifles, respectively). If the bowcaster is designed by Wookiees to kill Wookiees, it would need a similar advantage. Going by Whill's suggested stats (I think WEG's species minimum of 2D+1 is unrealistically low for a species renowned for its strength), a bowcaster will need a 2D-3D advantage (at a minimum) over the species minimum of 3D, so, Damage of 5D or 6D is adequate, if not exceptional, against such a creature.

But the bowcaster isn't just for use against other Wookiees. The only other creature native to Kashyyyk with official WEG stats is the Katarn, with a Strength of 4D. A bowcaster needs a minimum of 6D just to have a reasonable expectation of wounding an attacking Katarn.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Here are my current Wookiee attributes...

Wookiees
Attribute Dice: 13D/18D

_ Typical _. _ Min/Max _[
STR 3D+2 . 3D/5D+1
DEX 2D . . . 1D/3D+2
MEC 2D+1 . 1D+1/4D+1
TEC 1D+2 . 1D/3D+2
KNO 1D+2 . 1D/3D+2
PER 1D+2 . 1D/3D+2

Since the EU plays up Wookiees' technical aptitude, I would think the Tech attribute max should be at 4D+1, not the Mech...
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, my son's wookiee is a PC template so he has 5D STR. My point too is that by changing scale to get the 6D damage, it kinda boggles the mind that a wookiee can soak a speeder scale weapon.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
For the record, my son's wookiee is a PC template so he has 5D STR. My point too is that by changing scale to get the 6D damage, it kinda boggles the mind that a wookiee can soak a speeder scale weapon.

In fairness, any PC with a Strength of 3D or higher is going to have similar resistance to, say, a blaster pistol.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But the bowcaster isn't just for use against other Wookiees. The only other creature native to Kashyyyk with official WEG stats is the Katarn, with a Strength of 4D. A bowcaster needs a minimum of 6D just to have a reasonable expectation of wounding an attacking Katarn.

Exactly. Despite their tempers I don't see Wookiees having wars and shooting at each other a lot. So I think the bowcaster was mainly used for hunting on Kashyyyk, and Wookiees just defending themselves from the wickedly nasty predators on the planet. The higher damage makes sense to me.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Here are my current Wookiee attributes...

Wookiees
Attribute Dice: 13D/18D

_ Typical _. _ Min/Max _[
STR 3D+2 . 3D/5D+1
DEX 2D . . . 1D/3D+2
MEC 2D+1 . 1D+1/4D+1
TEC 1D+2 . 1D/3D+2
KNO 1D+2 . 1D/3D+2
PER 1D+2 . 1D/3D+2

Since the EU plays up Wookiees' technical aptitude, I would think the Tech attribute max should be at 4D+1, not the Mech...

I considered it again, and I stand by my stats. Sometimes the EU is stupid, and things became more clear in 2005.

First of all, WEG's Wookiee fluff and stats are one of many examples of basing an entire species on a single example from the films. The EU followed suit and kept repeating it. Despite putting Threepio's head on backwards, Chewie was very skilled in using technology. Making matters worse, it was well known since at least 1983 that Lucas's original concept for Wookiees being primitive warriors ended up manifesting as Ewoks in RotJ. Well, just because Ewoks are truly primitive and Chewie is technologically adept, that doesn't mean that entire species of Wookiees must have an equal technical aptitude than humans, or even an equal max Technical stat.

Then in 2005 we got to see Kashyyyk and many other Wookiees in a canon film. Yes, like thousands of sentient species in the galaxy, Wookiees use technology. But look at their planet. They have technological vehicles and weapons. But it's very organic and natural. And before you say, that one shore area shown may not represent the whole planet, it must have been an important "city" for the separatist to even attack there. The organic integration of technology here and there does not scream exceptional technical aptitude to me.

And honestly, the portrayal of Wookiees and Kashyyyk in RotS isn't that far off from the EU's descriptions of them. I imagine that far away from the Kashyyyk island shown in the films, in the mainlands there are the taller forest cities high above extreme natural dangers deep below as described by the EU. I still don't see Wookies as generally being as technological as humans.

For most species, I accept the capsule fluff as-is and only tweak the stats to better match that fluff. For Wookiees I also slightly tweaked the fluff statements about them being overly technologically oriented. A Technical max of 3D+2 is still not that far off from humans, and it is still better than a lot of species (still much better than primitive Ewoks). In my game Chewie would have his species' max Technical attribute, and some skills would be a good amount higher, like starship repair skills, demolitions, and even droid repair. Chewbacca is one of my favorite Star Wars characters, and I like to think that he is a special Wookiee in some ways, not just a higher-skilled stereotype of them.

As far as Wookiees having a Mechanical max of 4D+1, that also comes from the plot of RotS. In the film, the Jedi Council discuss Kashyyyk not falling to the Separatists being very important to the Republic war effort, but it doesn't say why. This may have been cut from the film itself, but it did make it into other sources. Kashyyyk is a major hub of hyperspace routes because Wookiees are known to have exceptional navigators. The Claatuvac Guild on Kashyyyk even knew many secret hyperspace routes. The shore city attacked in the film was actually the location of the vault that housed the Guild's central data center, which the Separatists (and Palpatine) wanted. The Essential Atlas speculates that it is possible that Han Solo's boast about the Falcon taking less than 12 parsecs to navigate the Kessel Run may be thanks to Chewie's navigational prowess and/or knowledge of secret routes. After all, Chewie was in the city of the navigator guild's base of operations when the Separatists attacked.

While it is true that I am not overly beholden to every single EU word written about the Wookiees, there had to be some reason why the Kashyyyk was said in the film to be so important to the war effort, and I find this to be a good one. Wookiee navigators and hyperspace scouts would need to be good in a lot of other spaceship skills besides Astrogation, so in my game Wookiees have a max Mechanical of 4D+1. Of course that doesn't mean all Wookiees are any good at astrogation, operating starships or other vehicles. But some are very good. In a lot of cases high Mechanical and Technical may go hand in hand, but for Wookiees I can easily see Mechanical being a little more important than Technical, in general.
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