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The Bowcaster... underpowered? My take on it.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
The Brain wrote:
Whats more impressive bringing down a cougar with '03 Springfield or a spear?
Trouble is, this may be more of a case of "what's stupider, trying to bring down a cougar with a BB gun or your bare hands". What's the point of a weapon if it's not as effective as no weapon?
But it's not very effect at a distance. Wink
Yeah, I gotcha. That's why I started out using thrown rocks as the yardstick. A wookiee can probably throw a rock as far as a bowcaster's long range, and it will probably do more damage then the RAW bowcaster when it hits.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Brain wrote:
Whats more impressive bringing down a cougar with '03 Springfield or a spear?


They're both impressive. And lets not forget that "rite of passage" does not necessarily mean that the animal has to be hard to kill- the point of finding and killing the animal might be the hunt itself.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
The Brain wrote:
Whats more impressive bringing down a cougar with '03 Springfield or a spear?


They're both impressive. And lets not forget that "rite of passage" does not necessarily mean that the animal has to be hard to kill- the point of finding and killing the animal might be the hunt itself.


Exactly. For more details, read the opening chapter of The Black Fleet Crisis book 3: Tyrant's Test...
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Azai
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You also can't forget, that the bowcaster is the wookiee choice weapon in war too.

In EU, video games, and even in Revenge of the Sith. They all brandish the traditional weapon in warfare, opposed to rocks.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Yeah, I gotcha. That's why I started out using thrown rocks as the yardstick. A wookiee can probably throw a rock as far as a bowcaster's long range, and it will probably do more damage then the RAW bowcaster when it hits.


Given a purpose built throwing knife has the following range:
Range: 2-3/5/10

And a bowcaster lists it's range as:
Range: 3-10/30/50

I'd say the bowcaster is going to be considerably more effective at range than a thrown rock.

Azai wrote:
In EU, video games, and even in Revenge of the Sith. They all brandish the traditional weapon in warfare, opposed to rocks.


I'm not sure I'd trust the reliability of video games as a source. Bowcasters can be wielded by basically anyone in most video games and they generally pay more attention to what is cool than what is cannon.

After all in some video games you can be good and yet still blast away with Force Lightning at will.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just feel like the wookiee should be a powerhouse, and his bowcaster should contribute to that role. Especially since it's a wookiee specific weapon. It's not very accurate (it's a short ranged weapon) so when it's in it's element, it should be awesome. For such a specialized weapon, it should basically be useless in certain "normal" combat scenarios (in this case, long range, rapid fire) but amazing in it's own niche, short ranged, one-shot-one-kill.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I quite like this idea from a previous bowcaster thread.

Akari wrote:
I personally don't really think the bowcaster is underpowered. Its more of a traditional weapon then anything else. And in our campaign I have made bowcasters quite easy to modify (compared to other weapons), giving our resident wookiee a really neat toy. He currently put scopes, lasterpointer and a 12-shot-autoloader on his bowcaster and modified the bolts to 1d armorpiercing by using specially sharpened durasteel heads. He also modified the energy output and pull, so it currently does 5d damage and has its range increased.

Besides, since the weapon is both physical and energy, the opponent rolls whatever armor is less effective against the bolt (usually energy). All in all he's got one hell of a weapon on which he spent a lot of time fiddling and finding parts for. Yes, bowcasters start out weak but through tuning comes mastery.

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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
Yeah, I gotcha. That's why I started out using thrown rocks as the yardstick. A wookiee can probably throw a rock as far as a bowcaster's long range, and it will probably do more damage then the RAW bowcaster when it hits.


Given a purpose built throwing knife has the following range:
Range: 2-3/5/10

And a bowcaster lists it's range as:
Range: 3-10/30/50

I'd say the bowcaster is going to be considerably more effective at range than a thrown rock.
First of all, control of range is very important to knife throwing. If you were just throwing the knife to hit, not hit point first, don't you think you could throw it more than 10 meters? Now how about if you were a Wookiee? The RAW is a little odd about thrown weapons. The range bands are all a little short, and all human norm. (I've stuck a throwing knife at more than 10 meters, and I'm not very good with them.)

Not to get off on a tangent, though... Embarassed

I think the point Azai made about bowcasters being used in war is also very telling. Look at the semi-automatic and bolt action weapons we use in warfare. How much more damage than punching does an M-1 Garand, or an M21 sniper rifle do?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akari wrote:
I personally don't really think the bowcaster is underpowered. Its more of a traditional weapon then anything else. And in our campaign I have made bowcasters quite easy to modify (compared to other weapons), giving our resident wookiee a really neat toy. He currently put scopes, lasterpointer and a 12-shot-autoloader on his bowcaster and modified the bolts to 1d armorpiercing by using specially sharpened durasteel heads. He also modified the energy output and pull, so it currently does 5d damage and has its range increased.

Besides, since the weapon is both physical and energy, the opponent rolls whatever armor is less effective against the bolt (usually energy). All in all he's got one hell of a weapon on which he spent a lot of time fiddling and finding parts for. Yes, bowcasters start out weak but through tuning comes mastery.


This is quite a good idea, however, I do still think the bowcaster is underpowered, RAW. Even this solution required some house ruling. Still, I'm working on a wookiee character and I'm thinking he's going to carry his custom/personally built bowcaster.

I think I am going to go with 5D+2 as a base for damage. And he will carry an assortment of special ammo for various situations (armor piercing, explosive/blast, incendiary, long range, etc)
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:

I think the point Azai made about bowcasters being used in war is also very telling. Look at the semi-automatic and bolt action weapons we use in warfare. How much more damage than punching does an M-1 Garand, or an M21 sniper rifle do?


Or just a 9mm Beretta, for that matter.
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Azai
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, not to just cite video games, Chewie uses the bowcaster in Return of the Jedi.

Instead of taking an A280, or a DL-44 like Han, war weapons in a war zone, he choices his bowcaster. Though it wasn't as if he couldn't use those weapons. In A New Weapon he wields a Stormtrooper rifle easily enough.

This just really leads me to believe, along with other EU sources, that the Bowcaster is the Wookiee's war weapon and would at least need to be a strong as a normal rifle or Heavy blaster pistol.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
The Brain wrote:
Mind you a bowcaster is a traditional cultural weapon that does not always equal uber kewlness in modern times, irl example WW II Japanese officers carrying swords while leading troops in the field.
True, but a WWII military sword doesn't do less damage than a punch from Lieutenant Yamada. Wink A bowcaster does less damage than many Wookiees and probably most PC Wookiees.


That is the effect of the 'weird' close combat damage system, and not the bowcasters fault..
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Azai
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't see that as an effect of a weird close quarters.

If you don't make a damage limit on a Rykk blade, or vibro blade it will not do less then a punch from the Wookiee. Nor would a rock.

Though this strength that they have had, would have always been what they had. It would have been normal for them. The only time it becomes outstanding is when they were "discovered" by other races that were weaker.

Hence why I believe they would design a projectile weapon that would do more then they could, or at least really harm them when used in warfare. Especially since some of the creatures on Kashyyyk are some of the most deadly in the galaxy.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought a better system would be to somehow cap unarmed damage so that it only inflicts Stun damage, unless it meets some sort of criteria, be that Wild Dice or whatever...
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read something somewhere from someone about using 1/2 Lifting for damage instead of Strength for brawling. It may have been in the Open D6 or a house rule, perhaps that would work better?
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