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Any suggestions on salvaging rights?
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kinfo_howlingwolf
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Any suggestions on salvaging rights? Reply with quote

First off, awesome community =)

Second, I havent been able to find any certain guide lines as far as salvaging/looting rights and I was wondering if anyone has worked this up themselves?

Our current campaign has us in a pro-imperial sector with local factions having a larger influence than the Imps. A few mercenaries went at with each other while the "Royal" navy just let them slug it out and shooed off any civvies tat got close. Now the battle was over and a PC wanted to scan down and salvage some ships for vital (i.e. expensive) parts.

For that instance the team was shooed away since it wasnt clear who was in the legal clear but I can guarantee this will more than likely show up again.

Any thoughts on how to handle it?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know for 1 home game i did (mostly fringer types doing odd jobs for the corporate sector), they actually had stuff like that bartered for prior to any jobs/during the time frames of employment.
Otherwise, if battle was fought (salvage) and imps were there, they most often shunned off any salvagers till the imps were done (Intel branch searching through it etc)... After that, first come first serve.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Earth, international maritime law, as well as any U.S. waterways I know of, allows anybody to take possession of any unmanned floating vessels on a first-come first-serve basis, since a vessel adrift is a navigational hazard. (There may be exceptions for military vessels to protect classified information and technology.) I don't know about sunken ships, but I hear that sunken Spanish gold legally still belongs to Spain, and such.

So, I would say the Empire would offer nominal support to player characters trying to salvage non-imperial ships, so long as they weren't known rebels or criminals. The support would likely not be very strong, unless the debris was a major navigational hazard interfering with imperial interests, and not liable to be quickly cleared without expense to the Empire.

The other factions, however would probably want to salvage their own vessels, (and their enemies as well!) They would probably be willing to use force to chase off civvies, unless there was enough of an enemy presence in the area to distract them. Regardless, the factions would likely have legal right to crew member's remains, and could take legal action with the Empire if they were withheld, (even unintentionally or unknowingly).

Just my $.02 worth.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my thing, all the other legal professions in Star Wars (bounty hunting, scouting, etc.) have one thing in common: the Imps want their cut. I think that all legal salvage would require a salvage license, for which you have to pay credits annually to maintain, and I also imagine that you would have to register your salvage with the Imps. Either before or after you've taken it, you would have to report the coordinates of the salvage.

The Empire wouldn't be happy about ANY salvage from their military or contracted commercial vessels. Any of that would be strictly illegal. They can't have private citizens getting their hands on military tech, nor would they want any losses of any recoverable material.

That being said, your campaign is probably going to be more interesting if they WERE going after some things that were military tech. I had a campaign outline where the players received some coordinates, and went to check it out. There they found the remains of a Clone Wars era battle. However, one of the ships is still under power. The logs showed that a convoy of Republic ships had been on a highly classified mission that wouldn't show up on record, and on that mission they engaged a heavy contingency of Separatist forces. In the end, the Separatists had destroyed the republic vessels, but only two Separatist capital ships survived, and one was so heavily damaged, that its hyperdrive and backup were disabled. The least damaged ship went to Mustifar to report in and get a repair team, but by the time the ship arrived, the war was over. The current ship went to minimal power and has been awaiting a repair team that would never arrive.

Viola, a ship ripe for our party of vultures to pick over. Of course, that's where the real problems begin...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Here's my thing, all the other legal professions in Star Wars (bounty hunting, scouting, etc.) have one thing in common: the Imps want their cut. I think that all legal salvage would require a salvage license, for which you have to pay credits annually to maintain, and I also imagine that you would have to register your salvage with the Imps. Either before or after you've taken it, you would have to report the coordinates of the salvage.
That sounds very reasonable and in keeping with what we see in the SWU. Registering coordinates would be vital from a navigation hazard standpoint and would also be used to settle issues of who got there first i.e. who is entitled to salvage. And it is dramatically interesting since it allows for both legal and illegal salvage as well as salvage claim jumping.
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Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I have the ship with the Turbolaser Batteries, so I have the right."
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect it is fairly close to what we have on Earth. The Squibbs and Ugor show that lots of salvaging is done, and also that the Empire doesn't give it a lot of scrutiny.

I would expect that some planets might claim some sort of rights on ships and cargo salvaged close by, but that most stuff is up for grabs. There might be some requirement to prove that the ship/cargo was actually salvaged rather that pirated, and the requirement is probably ignroed in some of the seedier parts of the galaxy.


On Earth the ship salvage rules are pretty open. it is the rules for sunken treasure that can get complicate, with countries wanting a cut (some want 100%) of treasure recovered. Where the ship goes down is ususally the factor for deciding who has the strongest claim. And sometimes other countires will make claims of artifacts, but those claims have to be fought for in court. Spain does not have an automatic right to any spanish doubloons that are recovered. They might make a claim to that effect, but it is about as valid as the claims the major sports leagues make about recording telecast games.


On Earth, even military ships are up for grabs, and there have been a couple of incidents involving lost submarines that have caused worries. And at least one case where the US ran a clandestine operation to secretly recover a Soviet sub.

Also, on Earth, some sites can be declared to be grave or memorial to those lost at sea and off limits. The remains of the USS Arizona for instance.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hows about this for a brief rundown on 'licensed' salvagers.

All salvage licensed personnel must be
A) registered with the local imperial authorities, corporate sector authorities, or other governing body for their sector.
B) all salvage ships will be licensed and certified by said bodies
C) all salvagers will be given 'keyed' salvage marker beacons that have a miniscule hyperspace comm to broadcast their placement to said authorities, so that not only do they know where/when a new salvage site is up and running, but whom it is making said claim.
D) all salvage ships are authorized to carry 1 military grade weapon system to assist in fending off salvage claim jumpers and pirates.
E) 25% of all claimed salvage is payable to the local authorities as taxes, or the salvage itself in leu of credits, with military grade items being first on the offering block.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A) is good, but I think you license the salvage company (or person) not their ship.
B) BOSS registration and such is more than enough red tape for most games, so I would skip B).
C) I mostly like C, but I'd want to arrange the technology so that claim jumping is possible.
D) I think this is more location dependent than a flat rule. Salvage in the Coruscant system shouldn't need defense, but out in the Outer Rim, then sure.
E) If local governing authorities are involved (Imperial, Corporate Sector, Hutt Space, etc.) then the % probably varies as well. Also the percentage may be higher or lower depending on how much the Empire wants to encourage salavage. So the governmental cut may be higher in the Core where there is enough traffic that wrecks will be quickly cleared and salvage doesn't need to be transported very far to reach a salvage yard, while out on the Rim, salvage ships are few and far between and the time and cost to transport the salvage is much higher (and the pirate and other risks are higher as well).
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Hows about this for a brief rundown on 'licensed' salvagers.

All salvage licensed personnel must be
A) registered with the local imperial authorities, corporate sector authorities, or other governing body for their sector.
B) all salvage ships will be licensed and certified by said bodies
C) all salvagers will be given 'keyed' salvage marker beacons that have a miniscule hyperspace comm to broadcast their placement to said authorities, so that not only do they know where/when a new salvage site is up and running, but whom it is making said claim.
D) all salvage ships are authorized to carry 1 military grade weapon system to assist in fending off salvage claim jumpers and pirates.
E) 25% of all claimed salvage is payable to the local authorities as taxes, or the salvage itself in leu of credits, with military grade items being first on the offering block.


I think garhkal has a good approach and would probably approach it such:
A) Salvage Company Registered with Imperial Authorities/Local Gov't (nod to Bren)
B) All company ships part of Company Record - as Bren said, BoSS can handle the rest.
C) A great idea for initially marking a claim - though I'd require the company fill out an official record of claim next time in port (like when dealing with part 'D')
D) Military Weapon permits, likely handled again by BoSS, but easier to acquire for companies with a salvage license - A single military weapon is a solid allowance for licence holders, with their permit adjusted for where the licence is valid as Bren noted.
E) Also good, make it expensive, the empire wants its cut

This is of course for licensed salvagers, the more expensive and tedious the better (the details can be ameliorated in a game that centers around being a licensed salvager), then encouraging limited time salvagers to risk just going for it - Firefly style.

Another Note:

I would mark a distinction between deep space salvage and salvage taking place in system. I would treat deep space much like we treat the High Seas , while in-system salvage laws would be more directly regulated by local or sector government - as if a salvage was located within a country's territorial waters.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually like most of what garkhal is saying here. I think the additional license for the salvage vessel seems just like the Empire. Do they have the information on BOSS? Yeah. If the captain himself has to have a license is it a redundancy? Yeah. Is that just like the bureaucratic nightmare of a crappy regime? Oh yeah. So, it seems to fit, especially after reading GG 10: Bounty Hunters. They have fees and fines for EVERYTHING.

So really, it would make sense if they were allowed one military grade weapon... if you get all the additional fees. Of course, to have a restricted weapon, it's already a fee isn't it?

Furthermore, I like this idea of a deep space/in sector difference. I would say that x distance from a planetary body had to be registered with the local government, y distance from a solar system had to be registered with the sector, and z distance from a sector was considered deep space and only registered through your general Imperial scavenger license.

Though I do have questions about the tax and "finders keepers" idea. This is all well and good for unclaimed space junk, but suppose a corporate supply ship has a hyperspace mishap or is attacked by pirates or something of that nature. It was a corporate owned ship, and thus the junk is still their property; broken property perhaps, but still property. It seems reasonable that they could contract a legal salvage to collect the remains and bring them back. However, the tax would kind of be unfair. Yes, I may have to pay tax on a car, but I don't have to pay taxes on the value of a car when it breaks down on the road and I have it towed to my house.

Man... there's enough to go on here to make a whole galaxy guide. If I had half an inkling that we'd actually finish this project, I'd say we should go for it.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be an interesting GG.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks chesire...

Crimson_Red wrote:
C) A great idea for initially marking a claim - though I'd require the company fill out an official record of claim next time in port (like when dealing with part 'D')


True there are going to be official records being needed to get made.. great way to push bureaucracy as a skill to get taken.

Bren wrote:
C) I mostly like C, but I'd want to arrange the technology so that claim jumping is possible.


Claim jumping would always be possible.. Jam transmissions out of the area (so the prior salvager's hypercom beacon is neutered.. Shot them, take their beacon and turn it off, then put your own up.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimson_red wrote:
I would mark a distinction between deep space salvage and salvage taking place in system. I would treat deep space much like we treat the High Seas , while in-system salvage laws would be more directly regulated by local or sector government - as if a salvage was located within a country's territorial waters.
Yes!

In-system, if a ship breaks down there should be something like calling a tow truck and flagging the vehicle so that it doesn't become liable for salvage. If their are a lot of wrecks, e.g. after a battle, then the forces in control may control or direct any salvage operations. For example after any of the various battles at Coruscant - I would imagine the government would contract to have the wreckage salvaged - maybe even asking for a request for proposals, bids, etc.

Regarding things outside the system, IIR on earth high seas salvage is related to abandonment of the vessel. If you abandon the vessel - you have essentially forfeited claim to the vessel. And the abandoned vessel is a threat to navigation. So for a corporate or any other ship with a hyperdrive malfunction or some such -
(a) as long as a minimal crew remains on board the ship is not abandoned, hence not liable for legal salvage.
(b) even if the crew is dead or gone, large corporations probably have repair and tow vehicles - either as part of their corporate fleet or as private contractors who are on call. So even if a corporate ship were 'abandoned' as long as they were able to call the corporation the company would send a repair vessel or contracted salvage vessel to take the ship in tow and avoid it being salvaged by some third party.
Note: this could create a race to the location to stake a claim. PCs could even be hired by a corporation to undertake a fixed fee salvage or towing operation.
(c) There could be tricky rules related to a vessel that is damaged such that it is unable to maneuver. Possibly it could be declared a navigational hazard (even if it has not been abandoned) if the vessel is unable to maneuver.

All these are just brainstorming thoughts - I don't think I've seen any source material regarding this topic.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should be a time limit on how long it can sit there (like a car on the side of the highway).
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