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Building Our Ship
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimson_red wrote:
In this case I've always placed the same cap on specialties as are on skills, 2D. I've wondered about it in the past, but since it hasn't been a problem I've never looked to correct it. Is their a page number in 2R&E that contains a single die limitation?

SWRPG 2nd edition R&E page 28 wrote:
Specializations
You can spend 1D of your character's beginning
skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each
specialization.

Each skill in the chapter on "Attributes and Skills" lists
several specializations; you may create new specializations
with the gamemaster's permission.

You roll the specialization's die code only when you use
the specific item or knowledge covered by the specialization;
otherwise, you roll the basic skill (or the attribute if you
haven't improved the skill).

A number of folks interpret the rule that you can only spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice for specializations and that you can only add 1D to any specialization. That is consistent with the wording, but personally I don't find the wording that specific nor am I that restrictive. I would allow multiple dice allocated to specializations - though I usually discourage that for long term characters. Typically, I wouldn't allow a character to add more than 3D total (base skill and specializations) for a normal character creation - but I have varied that as well when creating some PCs - especially 1-shot PCs or new PCs who were going to interact with established, high skill PCs. Marya Lambent a human imitating android in our campaign was a 1-shot PC and is long term NPC in our campaign.

As for the ship specialization - sounds like you covered the rationale for the character having the specialization.

Crimson_red wrote:
I also gave her a speed of 12, since I felt Guri's 15 was excessive for a new character. A 12 is high, but it wouldn't be the first uneven species.
Coincidentally I ended up with the same speed without reference to Guri's stats - since they didn't exist when I created Marya.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Plus you need to USE the item in question to have a specialty.. so how would he already have that ship as a specialty?
Though not an unreasonable house rule, I don't believe the rules actually say you have to use the item in question to have a specialization. As for how you might specialize in a ship you don't actually have...


This is from the rule book
"Some players may try to come up with some ridiculously
powerful skills or specializations — for example, communications:
Imperial secret codes. Granted, this skill may exist,
but no character could have the skill without a really good
reason."

Seems to me having the item itself to use is a good reason.. not having it is but just reading on it is not good enough (to my pov.

Quote:
You collect, read, watch, or listen to everything you can get your hands on about the YT-1769: technical manuals, flight instruction manuals, holonews reports, holofilms, holonovels, stories told by family members who have flown or flown on a YT-1769. As a child you hang around spaceports looking for YT-1769s to land then beg the crew to let you on board or into the cockpit, and with the light of amazement and enthusiasm shining in your eyes you ask them to tell you all about the amazing YT-1769 the bestest light freighter evarrr!

Well that's how my character might have done that. If he was really interested in the YT-1769.


Interesting idea.. but i don't see reading up etc on it, being as good as using it.

Quote:
Regarding the HRD, I'll post some info from my campaign on the HRD we had. I'll put it in the character section under - Marya Lambent.


Saw it.. Wow is she munchkined out.. effectively 25 wound levels, 5d strength (so is soaking blaster rifles with ease), +3d to all sensory rolls...

Quote:
In this case I've always placed the same cap on specialties as are on skills, 2D. I've wondered about it in the past, but since it hasn't been a problem I've never looked to correct it. Is their a page number in 2R&E that contains a single die limitation?


Page 28, 29.. seems self evident by the example shown and the "You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization." notation that its 2d into skill (max) then +1d for a specialty...

Quote:
The big question is how will this affect game play? if you feel it will be disruptive or detract from the experience, I would appreciate your advice and experience. Smile


Well lets see.

4d in all attributes by what you posted.. The takes 5 wounds before goes to heavy.. 5 heavies before severe, 5 severes before boom!.. So that she is effectively a 5d death dealing combat got, yes that is a massive game affecter.
Thats effectively making her undamagable unless you start tossing medium and heavy e-web repeaters consistently, or start having the enemy always combine fire on her.
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


Quote:
The big question is how will this affect game play? if you feel it will be disruptive or detract from the experience, I would appreciate your advice and experience. Smile


Well lets see.

4d in all attributes by what you posted.. The takes 5 wounds before goes to heavy.. 5 heavies before severe, 5 severes before boom!.. So that she is effectively a 5d death dealing combat got, yes that is a massive game affecter.
Thats effectively making her undamagable unless you start tossing medium and heavy e-web repeaters consistently, or start having the enemy always combine fire on her.


Just a quick clarification, in this example, are you referring to my player's HRD or Bren's? If it is mine, I think I'll need further explanation, because it certainly sounds noteworthy and would indicate I'm missing something significant.

My player's HRD does have 4D in all attributes, but uses the same wound table as any other character [Stunned (0-3), Wounded (4-8 ), Wounded twice, Incapacitated (9-12), Mortally Wounded (13-15), Dead (16+)]. Beside her attributes and speed, she has no other advantages over any other character.

There is no denying that my HRD is fast, tough, and effectively skilled... at just about everything... in some ways a bland character, but one that is poised to grow into what ever it is the player wants it to become. Excepting what details, mostly history, that have been worked out already, the character is in many ways a blank slate, and that kinda is what the player is looking for; to be there as she grows into herself, a real individual.

In this game I do have an advantage in that it is a small group, just the three of us, and I can keep a pretty tight handle on whats going on. I am interested in how it will unfold, though not entirely oblivious of the risks that the HRD may posses (at least I hope so, lol).
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
This is from the rule book
"Some players may try to come up with some ridiculously
powerful skills or specializations — for example, communications:
Imperial secret codes. Granted, this skill may exist,
but no character could have the skill without a really good
reason."
And specialization in a particular light freighter is by definition and example not ridiculously powerful. Try reading the actual definition of specialization. I quoted it above so you could read it. If you have an actual RAW source for "you must own the item to have a specialization it it" by all means give us the page number. You might also note that Crimson_red already said the character had access to an actual ship. It was the one the character was repairing.

garhkal wrote:
Interesting idea.. but i don't see reading up etc on it, being as good as using it.
You are way overanalyzing this garhkal. Its a specialization. For a single kind of ship. One that is legally available and not too uncommon. Who cares what the background justification is? Do you write up a detailed background history for where you bounty hunter got all the grenades - and how many dozen grenades he threw to give him a grenade skill?

garhkal wrote:
Page 28, 29.. seems self evident by the example shown and the "You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization." notation that its 2d into skill (max) then +1d for a specialty...
It may seem that self evident to you, but the language is ambiguous in English. Notice that "you can spend..." does not mean the same thing in English as "you can only spend..." And examples don't define rules, examples illustrate and exemplify rules. It is the definitional difference between rules and examples.

Quote:
The big question is how will this affect game play? if you feel it will be disruptive or detract from the experience, I would appreciate your advice and experience. Smile
You have misquoted. I did not ask this. Crimson_red did. Crimson_red did not use a variant damage system, I did.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimson_red wrote:
Just a quick clarification, in this example, are you referring to my player's HRD or Bren's? If it is mine, I think I'll need further explanation, because it certainly sounds noteworthy and would indicate I'm missing something significant.


Yours initally but it was also coming off of reading brens'..

Crimson_red wrote:
There is no denying that my HRD is fast, tough, and effectively skilled... at just about everything... in some ways a bland character, but one that is poised to grow into what ever it is the player wants it to become. Excepting what details, mostly history, that have been worked out already, the character is in many ways a blank slate, and that kinda is what the player is looking for; to be there as she grows into herself, a real individual.


Have you decided if they are going to be making skill upgrades to her like she is a droid, or via CP as a regular person?
Also, will she be getting CP and FP like regular??

bren wrote:
You might also note that Crimson_red already said the character had access to an actual ship. It was the one the character was repairing.


I saw that after i posted... So i will stand down there.
BUT in answer to your next comment, yes i do require them to show how via in backroud specialties are brought.. IF they own the gear (or ship) in question, then that is imo good enough.. If not (like say a veteran spacer who has no ship starting out) and they want a ship specialty, then write it in your backround/history that he spent X years using said ship..

Bren wrote:
You have misquoted. I did not ask this. Crimson_red did. Crimson_red did not use a variant damage system, I did.


Apologies for mixing you 2 up.. Sorry..

Bren wrote:
It may seem that self evident to you, but the language is ambiguous in English. Notice that "you can spend..." does not mean the same thing in English as "you can only spend..." And examples don't define rules, examples illustrate and exemplify rules. It is the definitional difference between rules and examples.


I have yet to meet a GM who views it that way, except for a few here... Guess we have a new poll question to ask...
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


Have you decided if they are going to be making skill upgrades to her like she is a droid, or via CP as a regular person?
Also, will she be getting CP and FP like regular??


Those are good questions.

For this particular character, she can only upgrade skills through Character Points. From an in-character perspective, if she ever had a data port of any kind, it has since be covered over and hidden by her skin.

Not to mention, at this stage, the possibility of being 'jacked into' would be disturbing at best, and utterly dehumanizing/devastating at worst. According to the discussions with the player, Ellee is aware of being a droid, but tries not to acknowledge the fact (we toyed with the idea of keeping it a secret, but with everyone [the players/me] aware we've gone the other way).

This has actually be a point of character development I've marked for later, especial considering how significant her nature and relationship to their parents is to the core story's development.

From that you can guess she will be earning character points as usual. Force points is another question. In the past I didn't give droids FPs, but after reading an interesting thread on it in, I think, the Gamemasters forum, I'll likely be allowing it.

The first few sessions will help me to decide. In the long run I expect both character to balance out though (the largest difference will likely be at character creation). It's certainly on my mind.

P.S. That is the same reason I'm allowing the double specialty slide; its a balancing factor (slight) and the characters should even out over time.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Bren wrote:
It may seem that self evident to you, but the language is ambiguous in English. Notice that "you can spend..." does not mean the same thing in English as "you can only spend..." And examples don't define rules, examples illustrate and exemplify rules. It is the definitional difference between rules and examples.


I have yet to meet a GM who views it that way, except for a few here... Guess we have a new poll question to ask...
I'm one of those few here. When language is ambiguous, I say it's up to GM discretion. I tend to be a fairly permissive GM since it seems to cut down on legalism and since I want a story driven by characters and a universe, rather than rules.

As usual, xkcd is relevant!
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Bren wrote:
It may seem that self evident to you, but the language is ambiguous in English. Notice that "you can spend..." does not mean the same thing in English as "you can only spend..." And examples don't define rules, examples illustrate and exemplify rules. It is the definitional difference between rules and examples.


I have yet to meet a GM who views it that way, except for a few here... Guess we have a new poll question to ask...
I find most people I meet or interact with, including the majority of GMs and RPG designers, are not very precise in their use of language. So that doesn't really surprise me. Also, you associate a lot with people who are GMing in a group where characters can move from GM to GM. It is far more critical to your group to try and standardize character creation and improvement and rules interpretation since so many different GMs and players are involved. That just isn't the same situation for many of us.

And although I love the WEG rules, far too frequently they were written in an imprecise and ambiguous fashion. This is one example where the writing could be more precise. But like Fallon Kell, I don't see any reason to get too hung up on whether a player spends exactly 1D on specializations. As long as they follow the ratio of 1 pip of starting skill = 1D of starting specialization and they don't allocate more than a total of 3D to any starting skill for a normal starting character it just doesn't seem important enough to get worked up about. Spending skill dice for specializations locks you into a narrow path pretty early in the character's career so it has its own built in limitation.
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Kaloth Varsk
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gap in how we believe things "should work" is so wide that I don't know why there is a discussion. I think this is going to be an agree to disagree.

However, here were my issues:
1) 4D in all attributes is an instant super character. Attributes are far more useful than skills.
Remember: 2D is average human ability. 4D is something someone is really good at. Your droid is good at every possible skill out there including everything they've never been exposed to. So their base programming basically includes all knowledge out there.

2) Your person who read books to learn to fly a ship is one of the best pilots in the galaxy based on those books.

I like my universe to make sense. I can be a rules lawyer, but I'm more about the spirit of things much of the time. These just feel wong to me all around, but it's your game and if you and your players have fun, that's what counts. It's just not how I would play, or something I'd likely enjoy playing in. Personal preferences are fine.

Anyway, this has gone WAY off topic.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nit picky point:
7D is best on a continent.
8D is best on a planet.
12D+ is among the best in the galaxy.

I don't think anyone was suggesting a specialization that reached 12D for a starting character.

If the skill level is reasonable - and 7D for a specialization seems reasonable to me and to the designers - then I'm not going to get too worked up about the background that justifies it. Ok, you read manuals and built models when you were growing up...great...that guy over there was on an old YT-1930 as a crewer for four years before play...super...that gal over there, her uncle held her on his knee and showed her how to fly uncie's ship...fine, whatever. We're not writing a novel here, it's just character background - I'm more concerned with what will the skill fit in to the group and the campaign and what will happen in play. If the skill is unreasonable then I don't care what background a player comes up with to justify it he's not getting it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll apologize for letting things get off track, I'm finding the discussions interesting, but it may be more beneficial to continue them in other threads; perhaps the HRD discussion in Bren's Marya Lambent thread and the skill discussion in Garhkal's skill poll. Discussion of my PCs specifically can stay here though.

Now to get back on topic, I've revised my approach overall, using a more conventional set up, I'm grouping tasks not by ship system, but by location and made the primary tasks more substantial with a degree of choice up front much as Kaloth Varsk suggested.
I gave each primary task 3 choices, ranging from best to worst. If they take the best (and most challenging) they will have better than stock stats, the second choice results in stock stats, and the third, below stock.
Secondary tasks, if taken can modify the same stats or others.


Around the Yard
• Securing a work space (Hull):
- Convince Uncle to use the workshop
- Clear out space in the Gallofree Hulk
- Build a scrap metal lean-to over the ship
• Pull that CEC FLJ-22 Particle Shield out of the YV-545, under the Gallofree Hulk (Hull)
• Scrounge around the yard for a set of Distributor & Phasing Links (expansion)
• Clear out the Scrat nest to get at the Roche Bi-linear Catalyzer (consumables)

In the Wastes
• Replacement Engines were taken by local swoop gang, the Flit Hawks (Speed):
- Get the gang’s Corellian Evader-LTX Ion Drive from secured warehouse
- Get your refurbished CEC Besh-2 Ion thrust Drive from compound yard
- Pick up Old Dangrin’s aging Incom Starsling Ion Drive
• Acquire starship weapons from the Flit Hawks (weapons)
• Rumour of a crashed smuggler ship in the swamps –salvage Tri-lateral Thrusters/other (maneuverability and trade)
• Akilika Canyon Races (trade)

Around Town (Urannis)
• Refurbish Power Core (variable):
- Hire Dinn Havis, the ingenious but lascivious engineer
- Take it to Hypervection Power Solutions for Refurbishment
- Convince Ilvid Unluu, an Arcona technician down on his luck, to help
• Stop by Slic Slovo’s Emporium:
- Buy shields: Rendili Stardrives NC-12 (1D) Cygnus Spacewerks ARX-112 (2D)
- Buy Weapons
• Tarquin University (glorified library): Research Plasma Harmonics [Knowledge: Scholar] (Expansion)
• Get lot #YL225 past customs for Riv Dazim (trade)

Finishing Touches
• Renovate passenger cabins (swap passenger/cargo space: 10 tons/person)
• Calibrate Sensors [Mechanical: Sensors] (Sensors)
• Reprogram Shield Projector [Technical: Computer Programming/Repair] (shields)
• Refit Hyperdrive [Technical: Starship Repair]

The finishing touches are pretty much that, they allow them to attempt improvements that don't necessarily fall in the other three areas.

I am looking for more suggestions for secondary tasks and what system they might affect. I've quite enjoyed those that have been offered and you might notice some appearing above.

Particularly, tasks that might give the PCs more bargaining room to deal for those items they need (you may have noticed some listed as 'trade' tasks). Anything to get a leg up. Oh, and if anyone wants to try their hand at stating skrats, fly at'er; I will likely find some creature stats that gets the job done, but I wont turn down custom stats.

And thank you again to everyone who has or will help. It is appreciated. Smile
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimson_red wrote:
[From that you can guess she will be earning character points as usual. Force points is another question. In the past I didn't give droids FPs, but after reading an interesting thread on it in, I think, the Gamemasters forum, I'll likely be allowing it.

The first few sessions will help me to decide. In the long run I expect both character to balance out though (the largest difference will likely be at character creation). It's certainly on my mind.

P.S. That is the same reason I'm allowing the double specialty slide; its a balancing factor (slight) and the characters should even out over time.


Double specialty slide?? Come again? Or are you going on about the 2d initial starting specialty for the freighter...

I take it IF she gets FPs it will be as a Non force sensitive? BUT since she is a robot (non sentient in a way) what does she resist force powers as? Also if say, a force user tries affect mind will it work? Would they gain a DSP for killing her?

Quote:
I find most people I meet or interact with, including the majority of GMs and RPG designers, are not very precise in their use of language. So that doesn't really surprise me. Also, you associate a lot with people who are GMing in a group where characters can move from GM to GM. It is far more critical to your group to try and standardize character creation and improvement and rules interpretation since so many different GMs and players are involved. That just isn't the same situation for many of us.


That is true Bren, but i am also going over the 3 GMs i had in london for star wars, the 2 in Norfolk, the one in Jacksonville, and the 1 i had for a whapping 2 months in Bahrain..

Of those others, only the 1 in Bahrain and one of the 3 in London were in the mindset that you, if you wanted, could put all 3 of those "specialty pips' into the same skill..

Quote:
1) 4D in all attributes is an instant super character. Attributes are far more useful than skills.
Remember: 2D is average human ability. 4D is something someone is really good at. Your droid is good at every possible skill out there including everything they've never been exposed to. So their base programming basically includes all knowledge out there.


Well said Kaloth... 4d is Professional level..

Quote:
• Clear out the Scrat nest to get at the Roche Bi-linear Catalyzer (consumables)


Creature: Scrat
Type: Urban pest
Diet: Scrap metal, ferrocrete
Activity: daylight
Dex 2d. Brawl parry 4d, flying 4d+2, dodge 3d+2
Know 1d. Survival 4d
Per 1d. Search 4d (food 5d), sneak 3d+2
Str 2d.. Brawl 4d
Tech 1d. Nest building 3d
Mech 1d.

These creatures are no force sensitive. They are pack organized with 1 male and 1 female being the 'center of the pack (add 1d to both Dex and Str for these 2), though they do share a hive mind of sorts, they gain no benefits from it.
Special benefits: Bite Str+1 + special
the bite of scrags secretes an acid that can break down most non organics it touches. Have it roll hull (No scale difference) against 4d. If the metal takes a light damage, it takes 1d hrs to break down sufficient to eat. If it takes a Heavy damage, it takes 1d x 10 minutes to break down. If it takes a severe damage, it takes 1d minutes to break down. If it takes a destroyed it can be consumed next round. Armors and blaster weaponry are at risk.
If it touches organic material NOT of the scrag's body type it causes 4d+1 damage per round till either burned off or scraped off.
Hide +2 physical protection
Wings, give it a flight of 14.

Move 7/14 (Flying)
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

Double specialty slide?? Come again? Or are you going on about the 2d initial starting specialty for the freighter...


lol, sorry, yes. I was trying to say one reason for allowing the character having the 2D specialty was in consideration of the Droid... I was 'letting it slide'... totally didn't come out right.

garhkal wrote:
I take it IF she gets FPs it will be as a Non force sensitive? BUT since she is a robot (non sentient in a way) what does she resist force powers as? Also if say, a force user tries affect mind will it work? Would they gain a DSP for killing her?


She would NOT be force sensitive (that's more than I could allow without her being a shard or something more organic... which isn't the case). Force powers would affect her like any other droid... unless that cloned skin and human bio-fibers have an affect... I'll have to think on that... it could be an avenue of character development... and I have plenty of time; I don't expect to encounter any overtly force-using opposition for a while.

garhkal wrote:
Quote:
1) 4D in all attributes is an instant super character. Attributes are far more useful than skills.
Remember: 2D is average human ability. 4D is something someone is really good at. Your droid is good at every possible skill out there including everything they've never been exposed to. So their base programming basically includes all knowledge out there.


Well said Kaloth... 4d is Professional level..


It is well said, and I do continue to mill over the idea. I'll talk with the others, see what they think, even if I suspect little will change. If it does, her attributes may fall somewhere closer to Guri's, for better or worse.

garhkal wrote:
Creature: Scrat
Type: Urban pest
Diet: Scrap metal, ferrocrete
Activity: daylight
Dex 2d. Brawl parry 4d, flying 4d+2, dodge 3d+2
Know 1d. Survival 4d
Per 1d. Search 4d (food 5d), sneak 3d+2
Str 2d.. Brawl 4d
Tech 1d. Nest building 3d
Mech 1d.

These creatures are no force sensitive. They are pack organized with 1 male and 1 female being the 'center of the pack (add 1d to both Dex and Str for these 2), though they do share a hive mind of sorts, they gain no benefits from it.
Special benefits: Bite Str+1 + special
the bite of scrags secretes an acid that can break down most non organics it touches. Have it roll hull (No scale difference) against 4d. If the metal takes a light damage, it takes 1d hrs to break down sufficient to eat. If it takes a Heavy damage, it takes 1d x 10 minutes to break down. If it takes a severe damage, it takes 1d minutes to break down. If it takes a destroyed it can be consumed next round. Armors and blaster weaponry are at risk.
If it touches organic material NOT of the scrag's body type it causes 4d+1 damage per round till either burned off or scraped off.
Hide +2 physical protection
Wings, give it a flight of 14.

Move 7/14 (Flying)


Very nice! Thank you Smile It looks better than what I was imagining (I wasn't straying to far from rat, lol). That's one of the parts I love about group input, it can take things in new and creative ways.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your welcome...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimson_red wrote:

Around Town (Urannis)


HE HE HE!
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