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Orion
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Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Orion wrote: | | 5D is an 8 gauge, but since this is only for a 12 gauge I dropped the damage to 4D then added a minimum of 1D back as an explosion, this could easily be done to the 8 gauge as well. |
Okay. That's closer to what I was thinking; I misunderstood. Also, in regards to the size of an explosive slug, remember that a frag grenade's explosive core is roughly the same volume as a 12 gauge shell... You can pack a lotta kaboom into a small space with even today's technology. |
Well I would argue that today's plastic explosive is more advanced than that of the SWU, backwards as that seems. While we all would likely agree that starship combat is modeled after WWII era naval combat, I feel that explosives are similarly modeled after that era since it takes something like a satchel pack to do any real damage. Remember I mentioned a fist sized cube, it's actually rated at 1D speeder scale with each additional cube doing another 1D. So an amount about the size of a quarter might do 1 pip worth of damage to a character by the rules.
Let me tell you guys a little story I heard from a Viet Nam vet. He's actually the father of a friend of mine. They had just gotten a new guy in there platoon and one of the guys was explaining to him that plastic explosive requires both heat and compression to explode. So he pulled a small piece of it off and flattened it so it was about the same size as a quarter, maybe a little smaller, he lit it on fire an tossed it on the barracks floor, to show it would burn without blowing up. About that time an NCO or a Butter Bar came in, I'm not sure which but I think it was the latter, and started going off about fires in the barracks. Before anyone could say anything to stop him he stomped the fire out, and consequently lost his foot in the process. By the RAW, that amount couldn't even hurt a character, and that was in the late 60's early 70's, while I'm not an explosives expert, I believe they have improved it since then.
As for the volume of a 12 gauge shell, remember not all of it can be explosives. You have to have room for the propellent powder as well as something acting like the wading, preventing the propellent's explosion from transferring heat and compression to the plastic explosive or it will blow up in the barrel. Similarly you must encase the explosive for the same reason, and you need a detonating device. The point being is that you cannot look at the entire volume of the shell as being explosive. Furthermore explosions damage by heat and shockwave, and I believe that flashbangs use the same or similar core as a frag grenade and they don't usually injure people, it's the fragments of the frag grenade that injures people in most instances.
| Kira Firestorm wrote: | | Just note that the HE round can penetrate a window then detonate killing everything in a normal room... |
I don't know if I would say killing, more like injuring most things. I don't want to get into a physics discussion on this so I'll just explain why the RAW allows you to 'dodge' frag grenades. Frag grenades do not spray their fragments in a perfectly uniform way, mostly due to variances in the grenades construction, so when you successfully dodge them you are jumping to an area that happens to be fragment free simply by luck. Since the Frag-12 HE round is much smaller than a frag grenade it has less fragments to disperse throughout the room and since most deaths occur from multiple fragment wounds the likelihood of killing everything in the room goes way down as there just isn't enough material to go around.
Not to mention all of your round examples are of a fragmentation type which neither I nor Fallon mentioned using in our descriptions. My round would probably fragment but to what distance would those fragments have enough kinetic energy to injure, not very far in my opinion and even if they did travel a significant distance is there enough fragmenting material to cover a blast zone, again not in my opinion, so I didn't mention it as I wasn't trying to make a mini-grenade, however everyone can do as they like. As for realism, I like to use it to influence my rules but remember the SWU is a place that a bullet can bounce off of your bare skin without injuring you. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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The detonite rules are screwed up. They work nicely if you have roughly two kilos and two different kinds of door to blow, but with a truckload, you could bring down the Executor. I agree that SW plastic explosives are modeled after WWII era explosives, but WWI era explosives are sufficient to provide the same kind of blast effects I was talking about, even using a blob the size of the 12 gauge slugs my family like to fire.
The stomping out C4 story is a myth that the myth busters busted last season, I think. The heat and pressure required to set off modern battlefield high explosives are massive. A .30 caliber tracer round or shrapnel from a high explosive incendiary bomb aren't enough.
Most importantly, though is to remember I'm talking about miniature SW warheads. A fist-sized thermal detonator can vaporize everything within 20 meters of it. A baradium charge is enough to do that kind of damage.
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Orion
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Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The detonite rules are screwed up. They work nicely if you have roughly two kilos and two different kinds of door to blow, but with a truckload, you could bring down the Executor. I agree that SW plastic explosives are modeled after WWII era explosives, but WWI era explosives are sufficient to provide the same kind of blast effects I was talking about, even using a blob the size of the 12 gauge slugs my family like to fire. |
Agreed about the rules, but I disagree about the explosive capability, without fragmentation the 'damage' is more likely to be a stunning type rather than a deadly one, unless of course your at ground zero.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The stomping out C4 story is a myth that the myth busters busted last season, I think. The heat and pressure required to set off modern battlefield high explosives are massive. A .30 caliber tracer round or shrapnel from a high explosive incendiary bomb aren't enough. |
Well my buddy's father claims to have seen it first hand, I suppose he could have lied, though I don't accept Mythbuster's findings as scientific proof. I've seen too many instances where they drew conclusions based on faulty data.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Most importantly, though is to remember I'm talking about miniature SW warheads. A fist-sized thermal detonator can vaporize everything within 20 meters of it. A baradium charge is enough to do that kind of damage. |
I know you are and your welcome to run it that way. I just don't think it's possible to shrink the warhead into the available space we are talking about, so I expressed my dislike of the idea. As for Thermal Detonators, baradium is described as extremely unstable...You saying you think it's a good idea to put that in a device which is propelled by an explosion? I'd say that would give new meaning to the word misfire. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | Agreed about the rules, but I disagree about the explosive capability, without fragmentation the 'damage' is more likely to be a stunning type rather than a deadly one, unless of course your at ground zero.
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Fragmentation is a useful way to extend the blast effects of a small explosive. It's really not necessary, though. Overpressure can be spectacularly lethal, and when you're dealing with a large object like a star destroyer, the target can become the fragmentation.
| Orion wrote: | I don't accept Mythbuster's findings as scientific proof. I've seen too many instances where they drew conclusions based on faulty data.
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I've seen that happen too, but the FBI demolitions expert said there was no way it was gonna go off, and they did shoot a burning blob of C4 with an incendiary rifle round, with no detonation. The stuff is designed to be stable enough that it won't go off just because it's hit by a few dozen stray rounds and a bombing run. A boot won't be enough.
Check out the NOVA episode Kaboom if you want to see video of some of the stability testing plastic explosives undergo.
| Orion wrote: | | As for Thermal Detonators, baradium is described as extremely unstable...You saying you think it's a good idea to put that in a device which is propelled by an explosion? I'd say that would give new meaning to the word misfire. |
There has to be a way to stabilize it. We see X- and Y-wings full of baradium-laden proton torpedos blowing up all over the battle of Yavin, but the single largest explosion by far depicted in that scene before the Death Star reactor core goes up is when two torpedoes miss the thermal exhaust port and blow up on the Death Star's surface. If the Baradium didn't cook off with laser cannon fire and a starfighter exploding all around it, I doubt a couple dozen grains of smokeless powder would do it.
If you want to limit the power of your player's weapon of choice, that's one thing, but a 7D damage payload round certainly seems doable, if expensive, to me.
Explosives ever since Alfred Nobel, and particularly since RDX was developed in the WWII era have been commonly underestimated in raw power by the general public.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Kira Firestorm wrote: | Okay for any of you wondering how deadly the AA-12 shotgun is, it's a fully automatic shotgun with a drum magazine, limited recoil, and comes with a variety of ammo.
Frag-12
Frag-12 high explosive
Frag Heap rounds
so having it do 7D is actually about right with the standard round, watch it on Utube or Future Weapons if you like, it's deadly.
Another option would be to create rules for single/burst and full auto damage for it.
Just note that the HE round can penetrate a window then detonate killing everything in a normal room, and the HEAP round takes out armoured walls and then explodes.
Rules would differ maybe for single/burst/full auto, adding in difficulty but would also add to damage per increment.
Ofcourse blast radius would lower damage over scales. |
So you are saying a 12 gauge would be not only more potent than an 8 gauge, but better than a 50 cal shot (which is 6d by some sources)>???
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | | I've never played 40k so I have no idea how bolt shells work in that game. |
From Warhammer 40K Wiki:
The Bolter is a large, .998 calibre assault rifle.
(Allthough some sources say .75, perhaps there are several models).
Standard Bolter round.
[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080920122314/warhammer40k/images/9/9a/BS[/img]
Internal Details
1. A solid-fuel rocket propellant base
2. An outer casing containing conventional charge
3. Gyrostabilizer
4. Mass-reactive fuse. Has a split-second timer to delay detonation upon impact until after the shot penetrates the target.
5. Hardened diamantine penetrating tip. This allows for the bolt to penetrate most armour before detonation.
6. Main Charge
7. Depleted uranium core. This is a very dense material, adding weight and thus momentum to the round when in flight. This aids in the bolt's penetration of the victim.
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
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Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Fragmentation is a useful way to extend the blast effects of a small explosive. It's really not necessary, though. Overpressure can be spectacularly lethal, and when you're dealing with a large object like a star destroyer, the target can become the fragmentation. |
My understanding is more explosives not less is required to produce such overpressures.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | I've seen that happen too, but the FBI demolitions expert said there was no way it was gonna go off, and they did shoot a burning blob of C4 with an incendiary rifle round, with no detonation. The stuff is designed to be stable enough that it won't go off just because it's hit by a few dozen stray rounds and a bombing run. A boot won't be enough.
Check out the NOVA episode Kaboom if you want to see video of some of the stability testing plastic explosives undergo. |
It was not my intent to set off a debate on the stability of C4, I was using the story to show that an amount much smaller than what the rules will allow can significantly injure a person. I do have one question though, with regards to your information, has C4 been improved in it's stabilization in the last 40+ years? Perhaps that would account for the difference in your information and that of the person I know.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | There has to be a way to stabilize it. We see X- and Y-wings full of baradium-laden proton torpedos blowing up all over the battle of Yavin, but the single largest explosion by far depicted in that scene before the Death Star reactor core goes up is when two torpedoes miss the thermal exhaust port and blow up on the Death Star's surface. If the Baradium didn't cook off with laser cannon fire and a starfighter exploding all around it, I doubt a couple dozen grains of smokeless powder would do it.
If you want to limit the power of your player's weapon of choice, that's one thing, but a 7D damage payload round certainly seems doable, if expensive, to me.. |
I've never seen anything that says that a proton torpedo contains baradium. But if it does, stabilizing explosives usually means adding something to them, which increases there weight/volume as it relates to their destructive capabilities. So again your talking about making it bigger not smaller.
It's clear to me that we have a misunderstanding. It's not the 7D per say, it that it's a 7D area of effect, a 2 meter diameter sphere that takes 7D. That's more D than most grenades in the game, though your damage falls off more quickly. Being highly damaging to one target is one thing, but being so against multiple targets is another. Though I agree that were it possible to miniaturize such a warhead it would be prohibitively expensive. I just don't see it as being possible. |
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | From Warhammer 40K Wiki:
The Bolter is a large, .998 calibre assault rifle.
(Allthough some sources say .75, perhaps there are several models).
Standard Bolter round.
[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080920122314/warhammer40k/images/9/9a/BS[/img]
Internal Details
1. A solid-fuel rocket propellant base
2. An outer casing containing conventional charge
3. Gyrostabilizer
4. Mass-reactive fuse. Has a split-second timer to delay detonation upon impact until after the shot penetrates the target.
5. Hardened diamantine penetrating tip. This allows for the bolt to penetrate most armour before detonation.
6. Main Charge
7. Depleted uranium core. This is a very dense material, adding weight and thus momentum to the round when in flight. This aids in the bolt's penetration of the victim. |
Intersting, I had thought about making mine AP as well but decided it was probably effective enough as is. The write up on this indicates it's a hybrid weapon, both a firearm and a gyrojet. |
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Fallon Kell
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | | It's clear to me that we have a misunderstanding. It's not the 7D per say, it that it's a 7D area of effect, a 2 meter diameter sphere that takes 7D. That's more D than most grenades in the game, though your damage falls off more quickly. Being highly damaging to one target is one thing, but being so against multiple targets is another. Though I agree that were it possible to miniaturize such a warhead it would be prohibitively expensive. I just don't see it as being possible. |
I was saying 7D on contact, 5D at 1 Meter radius.
I think 7D at 1 meter is plausible, considering that a blaster power pack can hold 100 rounds at 4D and is less than two cubic inches in volume. Star Wars tech clearly allows for enough energy concentration to do that much damage with so small a device.
Not a whole lot of explosives is required for an overpressure kill. More makes it easier and more effective, but it's the overpressure that makes the fragmentation move in the first place.
I doubt C4 (composition #4) has changed significantly since it's invention, otherwise it would be C5. If the story is true, than I doubt it was C4. I don't know how stable semtex is while it burns, and I doubt Viet-Cong-Kitchen-brand high explosives are so stable as either.
| Wookieepedia wrote: | | The exact nature of proton torpedo warheads are not fully understood, since few sources talk about the actual nature of the warhead. However two separate authors have in the LOTF[1][2] series stated that they use a baradium main charge, detonated by a proton detonator. |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Make the star wars version an 8 gauge shottie: 5D
+1D damage explosive slugs (page 115 Gry's stats) (50credits a piece)
+1D Automatic Fire damage.
7D, give it 1meter blast radius damage of 5D or 6D, or just say it does damage only to adjacent targets (which can be GM's discretion).
Give it the 8 gauge max effective range of 25m and be done with it.
I really don't see why this needs to be so complicated. They're weapon stats. Take what's close in game and edit them to your liking. How big is the drum on an AA-12? 32 rounds? Give it 33 So a full load of explosive shotgun shells costs 1650cr and fires 3 rounds per action while on constant fire mode.
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Orion
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Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | Make the star wars version an 8 gauge shottie: 5D
+1D damage explosive slugs (page 115 Gry's stats) (50credits a piece)
+1D Automatic Fire damage.
7D, give it 1meter blast radius damage of 5D or 6D, or just say it does damage only to adjacent targets (which can be GM's discretion).
Give it the 8 gauge max effective range of 25m and be done with it.
I really don't see why this needs to be so complicated. They're weapon stats. Take what's close in game and edit them to your liking. How big is the drum on an AA-12? 32 rounds? Give it 33 So a full load of explosive shotgun shells costs 1650cr and fires 3 rounds per action while on constant fire mode. |
It doesn't, if that's to your liking, by all means do it. I'm not saying it needs to be done my way, nor do I believe Fallon Kell is saying that it needs to be done his. Not everyone has the same tastes, as evidenced by my discussion with Fallon. |
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Orion
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I was saying 7D on contact, 5D at 1 Meter radius. |
Even still that's equivalent to a frag grenades damage and the same range.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think 7D at 1 meter is plausible, considering that a blaster power pack can hold 100 rounds at 4D and is less than two cubic inches in volume. Star Wars tech clearly allows for enough energy concentration to do that much damage with so small a device. |
Point taken, but that power pack is actually 2 sources of power with a lot of process involved in combining them to get that 4D 100 times. You couldn't take that pack and detonate it as a 400D explosion.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Not a whole lot of explosives is required for an overpressure kill. More makes it easier and more effective, but it's the overpressure that makes the fragmentation move in the first place. |
But a certain amount is needed to achieve injuring overpressure at the point of detonation and more is needed to make it carry out from there. At some point the overpressure drops to a level that doesn't physically harm an individual, it most certainly can still be felt though.
| Wookieepedia wrote: | | The exact nature of proton torpedo warheads are not fully understood, since few sources talk about the actual nature of the warhead. However two separate authors have in the LOTF[1][2] series stated that they use a baradium main charge, detonated by a proton detonator. |
Your citing two authors of the same series, which was published after ROTS, and applying it to ANH's visuals as support for baradium being stable? This is one of those things in the EU I'm just not going to agree with. With that composition calling them Proton Torpedos, is like calling a nuke a C4 bomb, because C4 is used to detonate it. What's more if you follow the proton detonator link, it says they were used in concussion missiles. On the Baradium page it lists missiles that were capable of destroying Capital Ships with a single shot, the Seismic charge from ATOC, and SuperWeapons capable of destroying planets. Seems a little lowly Proton Torpedo would be out of place with the rest of the things listed there, at least in my opinion. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | | Even still that's equivalent to a frag grenades damage and the same range. |
The falloff is faster afterwards. (A representation of less fragmentation and more concussion.)
| Orion wrote: | | Point taken, but that power pack is actually 2 sources of power with a lot of process involved in combining them to get that 4D 100 times. You couldn't take that pack and detonate it as a 400D explosion. |
True, but the main reason for that is that D codes in D6 follow a logarithmic progression. 400D character scale is more energy than the Death Star carries, by far. What you can do is detonate it for 7D or 8D character scale by setting it to overload.
| Orion wrote: | | But a certain amount is needed to achieve injuring overpressure at the point of detonation and more is needed to make it carry out from there. At some point the overpressure drops to a level that doesn't physically harm an individual, it most certainly can still be felt though. |
That threshold is lower than an ounce. An ounce of plastic explosives can fit in a 12 gauge shell with room to spare, then kill you with no fragmentation just fine.
| Orion wrote: | | Your citing two authors of the same series, which was published after ROTS, and applying it to ANH's visuals as support for baradium being stable? |
The authors had ANH's visuals to work from. Why shouldn't they count? | Orion wrote: | | With that composition calling them Proton Torpedos, is like calling a nuke a C4 bomb, because C4 is used to detonate it. |
C4 isn't used to detonate nukes. RDX, the primary explosive component in C4, is used to detonate nukes. C4 doesn't have quite the power needed. Regardless, the proton detonator is said to constrain the detonation to a specific area in much the same way as a thermal detonator. The proton detonator is an integral part of a proton torpedo, and a different detonator would yield a different effect. | Orion wrote: | | What's more if you follow the proton detonator link, it says they were used in concussion missiles. |
I think that's a typo, but it's of no consequence either way; the A-wings over Endor didn't blow up that big either. | Orion wrote: | | On the Baradium page it lists missiles that were capable of destroying Capital Ships with a single shot, the Seismic charge from ATOC, and SuperWeapons capable of destroying planets. Seems a little lowly Proton Torpedo would be out of place with the rest of the things listed there, at least in my opinion. |
Use more baradium, get a bigger boom. Proton torpedos are the diameter of a large dinner plate. Baradium missiles are large enough to need deflector shields and a droid pilot and baradium fission devices are strategic arms. it's like comparing the explosives contained in an antitank missile with those contained in a cruise missile or commando vault. Finally, a Void-7 seismic charge is nearly as big as I am, and is a baradium-collapsium device. Comparing it to a proton torpedo is like comparing a fission bomb to a fusion bomb. In fact, I'd bet heavily that the concept was taken directly from tritium boosting–a real world process in which a tritium is burned in the core of a fission device to create a thermonuclear yield.
Finally, if you can take the energy stored in a blaster power pack and deliver the energy in the form of a disruptor blast (7D) without the aid of a material medium for the energy to travel through, you can deliver it via a material means at least as well. It's always more efficient to keep the energy stored in matter than to convert it. The technology exists in Star Wars to do that much damage with a device that small. That's all I'm trying to get across.
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Orion
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | That threshold is lower than an ounce. An ounce of plastic explosives can fit in a 12 gauge shell with room to spare, then kill you with no fragmentation just fine. |
Unfortunately the game system does not see it that way. For the real stuff, I believe your right, but if your going to change things for this round, then I would think changing the rules for Dentonite would be needed as well. To achieve 1D character scale for the amount were talking about, the cube would need to do at least 1D starfigher scale damage. Unless you change the way damage is scaled for explosives.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The authors had ANH's visuals to work from. Why shouldn't they count? |
Do you honestly believe that they took those things into consideration when they wrote the idea. More than likely the first author came up with the idea, because he want to give the proton torpedo the coolness factor of having baradium in it and the second just followed suit to maintain continuity in the series.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Regardless, the proton detonator is said to constrain the detonation to a specific area in much the same way as a thermal detonator. The proton detonator is an integral part of a proton torpedo, and a different detonator would yield a different effect. |
That is apparently up for debate as well, what's more a thermal detonator doesn't have a blast effect, it has a damage zone, anything in the zone is damaged, anything outside it is undisturbed, even if it's just barely outside of it. Explosions have effects outside of there destructive area. For me, trying to apply that sort of thing to the proton torpedo, is just more writer nonsense, in general, they write what sounds good not what makes sense. Though the 2 are sometimes the same, judging by the visual of the miss in ANH, I don't think this is one of those times. If they had created the concept of the Proton Torpedo, it would be different, but they didn't they're retconning George's idea and doing a poor job of it in my opinion.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Use more baradium, get a bigger boom... |
The point I was trying to make was the Bardium devices all seem to be more spectacular. Even the 'lowly' Thermal Detonator outclasses everything comparable.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | In fact, I'd bet heavily that the concept was taken directly from tritium boosting–a real world process in which a tritium is burned in the core of a fission device to create a thermonuclear yield. |
Which SWU device were you referring to with this? I couldn't tell for sure by what you wrote.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | ...The technology exists in Star Wars to do that much damage with a device that small. That's all I'm trying to get across. |
On this you may be right but I dislike the idea of being able to shrink a starfighter scale weapon down to fit into a firearm. I just think it goes too far. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, then let's drop baradium. As you'll see later in this post, there's plenty of other ways to do it. | Orion wrote: | | Which SWU device were you referring to with this? I couldn't tell for sure by what you wrote. |
The baradium-collapsium seismic charge. It strikes me the same as a plutonium-tritium nuclear bomb. | Orion wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | ...The technology exists in Star Wars to do that much damage with a device that small. That's all I'm trying to get across. |
On this you may be right but I dislike the idea of being able to shrink a starfighter scale weapon down to fit into a firearm. I just think it goes too far. |
Well, let's look at the diatrium power cell in lightsabers: roughly the size of a .410 shot shell (a little longer) and able to hold enough energy to sustain a lightsaber blade as it blocks a blast from an AT-AT's laser cannon. Or how about that time one of Han Solo's friends accidentally destroyed a moon with a few grains of antimatter? Star Wars is full of different ways to do that kind of damage with something so small.
Incidentally, what is your problem with miniaturizing the warheads, exactly? Nothing I've ever seen says that concussion missiles need to attain a critical mass, so why can't you just build the warhead smaller?
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