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thedemonapostle
Commander
Joined: 02 Aug 2011
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Location: Texas
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| thedemonapostle wrote: | | Arent these kinda what you guys are discussing? |
Kinda. We're trying to hash out exactly what the Star Wars version would be, and how big a boom it should make.
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Star Wars is full of different ways to do that kind of damage with something so small. |
I'll concede that point to you.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Incidentally, what is your problem with miniaturizing the warheads, exactly? Nothing I've ever seen says that concussion missiles need to attain a critical mass, so why can't you just build the warhead smaller? |
From a scientific stand point technologies can only be shrunk so far, there has always been a limit to how far something can be miniaturized, that limit can change over time, but it's always there. I consider Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes to be technologies, rather than simple explosive devices, so they can only be shrunk so far. A man portable version sure, but a small arms version, I just think it's too big a jump. BTW, Wookiepedia denotes their warhead as being either nuclear or thermonuclear in nature, if you accept their definition of what they are. Also the more I think about the mini-Proton launcher, the more I'm sure it's supposed to be starfighter scale, it's just a man portable version, intended for use by spacetroopers against starfighters.
From a game system stand point, I've had too many players, in varies game systems, that want to take vehicle weapons or some other weapon not designed to be used by a character on the infantry level, and want to turn them into uber hand guns or rifles, so I take the position that if the technology existed to shrink them to that point they would have already been in the game, as allowing the players to use these uber weapons can greatly upset game balance. Even using an economic limit as you have done, doesn't always work, as they may just take the I will steal them instead attitude, and somebody, somewhere has them or the characters couldn't buy them, even if you make it so the chars are making them from scratch, they can still steal the parts/materials to make them. |
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| thedemonapostle wrote: | | so by using star wars tech you could just scale the 25mm grenade down to fit in a shotgun. |
You can do it in any manner that you like. Fallon and I just have a difference of opinion on what we think should be appropriate. The 25mm doesn't ring a bell with me, do you have a reference? |
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thedemonapostle
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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id say the damage is relative to the cost of the shotgun grenade. roughly say 5D damage and 2000-3000 credits per grenade, so roughly 10x the regular cost.
come to think of it, one could put a pocket nuke in such a small container as to fit in a shotgun grenade. granted it wouldnt cause mega or even kiloton damage levels but a few tons would be more than enough to take down most things characters shoot at. or at least thats my way of looking at it.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| thedemonapostle wrote: | id say the damage is relative to the cost of the shotgun grenade. roughly say 5D damage and 2000-3000 credits per grenade, so roughly 10x the regular cost.
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Two to three thousand credits per 5D grenade? Why would anybody make those, when you could just use a heavy blaster pistol that cost you 500 credits? I think they should be expensive, but even I wouldn't make the cost that much.
It's hard to estimate, but it seems to me that an imperial credit has roughly the same buying power as $5 American. 2000 credits per grenade would then mean you could either buy a full magazine, or a nice house!
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thedemonapostle
Commander
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: |
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Micro-Grenade Launcher
Model: Locris Syndicates Model MGL-1
Type: Micro-grenade launcher
Scale: Character
Skill: Missile weapons: grenade launcher
Ammo: 30 (magazine)
Cost: 2,500; 1,000 (micro-grenade magazine)
Availability: 3, F
Fire Rate: 1
Range: 3-25/100/200
Blast Radius: 0-2/4/6
Damage: 4D/3D/2D (fragmentation; other micro-grenades are available)
Game Notes: This micro-grenade launcher has a computerized fire control system. If the character can make a Moderate Perception roll (this is a free action and doesn’t count as a skill use, so there are no penalties), the character can add +1D to hit when the weapons is fires; if
the character is firing at the same target repeatedly, the character automatically gets the +1D for the second and following shots.
Source: Galaxy Guide 10: Bounty Hunters (page 84), Gundark’s Fantastic Technology (pages 36-37), Rules of Engagement – The Rebel SpecForce Handbook (page 65)
thinking about it all and looking over whats already out there, id say this would pretty much work for the shotgun grenades
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:09 am Post subject: |
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That is true, plus you have the "Blast and Smash" grenade launcher slung under a blaster Carbine..
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | | From a scientific stand point technologies can only be shrunk so far, there has always been a limit to how far something can be miniaturized, that limit can change over time, but it's always there. I consider Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes to be technologies, rather than simple explosive devices, so they can only be shrunk so far. |
I agree they are technologies, but we have no indication of the lower limit of those technologies being anywhere near as large as human scale. Considering that an internal combustion engine the size of a stack of pennies has been built, a shot shell-sized version of a maverick missile's warhead is easy to build, and you can put a laser in a ball-point pen, I have no trouble with a severely miniaturized concussion warhead. In my game, you can even buy them in rifle and pistol calibers. | Orion wrote: | | From a game system stand point... |
As I said at the start, game balance is another matter. I've merely been discussing whether it's plausible in SW, not whether you should actually ever give him access to such a gun!
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Orion wrote: | | BTW, Wookiepedia denotes their warhead as being either nuclear or thermonuclear in nature, if you accept their definition of what they are. Also the more I think about the mini-Proton launcher, the more I'm sure it's supposed to be starfighter scale, it's just a man portable version, intended for use by spacetroopers against starfighters. |
Here's the quote from the Imperial Sourcebook page 48 on Space Trooper Armor weapons:
| Quote: | Grenade Launcher Uses missile weapons skill, ranges: 5-
50/100/200 (in space: 0/1/2).
Concussion Grenades: Ammo: 30, 5D/4D/3D/2D, blast radius:
0-2/4/6/10.
Gas/Stun Grenades: Ammo; 30,5D/4D/3D/2D (stun), blast
radius: 0-2/4/6/8.
Mini-Proton Torpedo Launcher: Uses starship gunnery skill,
6D damage, ammo: 6, ranges: 25-100/300/700 (1/3/7 in
space).
Blaster Cannon: 6D damage, uses blaster skill, ranges 10-
50/100/150.
Laser Cutters: 0.3 meter range, 3D damage (starfighter
scale). |
Unfortunately the only weapon that lists a scale is the Laser Cutters.
However, it seems reasonable to assume that since the grenade launcher uses the Missile Weapons skill and the Mini-Proton Torpedo Launcher uses the Starship Gunnery skill that the grenades are Character scale and the Mini-Proton Torpedoes are Starship scale.
EDIT: fixed quote attribution to Orion.
Last edited by Bren on Tue May 01, 2012 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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The use of the Starship Gunnery skill is the main reason I believe that the mini's are supposed to be Starfighter scale, also 6D character scale damage seems a bit light for the weapon, but 6D starfighter seems more reasonable for a man portable version.
Btw, Bren, the first half of my quote, is actually in reference to Concussion Missiles on Wookiepedia, not the Mini-Proton Torpedo, Fallon had mentioned not seeing anything on them that required them to reach critical mass. |
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I agree they are technologies, but we have no indication of the lower limit of those technologies being anywhere near as large as human scale. Considering that an internal combustion engine the size of a stack of pennies has been built, a shot shell-sized version of a maverick missile's warhead is easy to build, and you can put a laser in a ball-point pen, I have no trouble with a severely miniaturized concussion warhead. In my game, you can even buy them in rifle and pistol calibers. |
From your answer, I take it that you disagree with Wookiepedia on the matter of Concussion Missile warheads being of nuclear or thermonuclear nature, otherwise your saying that your not only miniaturizing the warhead but also tech that would contain the explosion to the area you described, or did you miss that reference?
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | As I said at the start, game balance is another matter. I've merely been discussing whether it's plausible in SW, not whether you should actually ever give him access to such a gun! |
You asked my why exactly so I gave you my full reasoning. Also the stance I take in the game balance argument, could also be applied to the scientific argument as well. If the tech existed to do it, then why hasn't it already been done? Surely some scientist in the SWU would have thought of it, after all it's not a unique idea, as I have said, characters want to do this kind of thing quite often, at least in my experience. |
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Zarm R'keeg
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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Location: PA
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | It's hard to estimate, but it seems to me that an imperial credit has roughly the same buying power as $5 American. 2000 credits per grenade would then mean you could either buy a full magazine, or a nice house! |
I always got closer to $10; a nice even decimal conversion.
| Orion wrote: | | If the tech existed to do it, then why hasn't it already been done? Surely some scientist in the SWU would have thought of it, after all it's not a unique idea, as I have said, characters want to do this kind of thing quite often, at least in my experience. |
To play devil's advocate, that is a flaw of Star Trek, Star Wars, and most sci-fi franchises- things like the destruction of a planet ought not to require a superweapon station, but a few unusual applications of everyday technology- most sci-fi writers simply don't think through the implications of the technology they put in their stories. So I don't know if that's quite a valid argument in terms of the plausibility of a concept- since it is predicated on the creativity and scientific/technical aptitude of authors. 
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I agree they are technologies, but we have no indication of the lower limit of those technologies being anywhere near as large as human scale. Considering that an internal combustion engine the size of a stack of pennies has been built, a shot shell-sized version of a maverick missile's warhead is easy to build, and you can put a laser in a ball-point pen, I have no trouble with a severely miniaturized concussion warhead. In my game, you can even buy them in rifle and pistol calibers. |
Lets see. Your laser pointer pen does no damage unless shined directly in someone's eye. That 'penny stack' engine powers at most a bike light bulb, not that big an achievement...
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | I always got closer to $10; a nice even decimal conversion. |
I get 10:1 with some things, too. It's hard with the radically different technologies and economies. | Orion wrote: | | From your answer, I take it that you disagree with Wookiepedia on the matter of Concussion Missile warheads being of nuclear or thermonuclear nature, otherwise your saying that your not only miniaturizing the warhead but also tech that would contain the explosion to the area you described, or did you miss that reference? |
It's inconsequential. If you have access to Star Wars level laser technology, there's no bottom end on the yield of a fusion device. | garhkal wrote: | | Lets see. Your laser pointer pen does no damage unless shined directly in someone's eye. That 'penny stack' engine powers at most a bike light bulb, not that big an achievement... |
The idea was to point out how much bigger technologies at their "normal" size are than their theoretical minimum, to demonstrate how the minimum size of a concussion warhead could be reduced to the size of a 12 gauge shot shell.
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