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Range affecting weapon damage
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:29 am    Post subject: Range affecting weapon damage Reply with quote

Perhaps this idea has already been shared, but while running my Imperial Officers' Campaign, I experienced an initial rut of ships getting popped after just one or two rounds of long range fire. My hopes for exciting ship to ship combat were falling short. I felt I would never see the need for tactics or a close range broadside between ships as seen in RotJ or RotS. Then I remembered the slow chase from TLJ... the long range shots from the First Order just bounced off the Resistance ships at long range. That was all I needed. See my damage and range rules below:

Range Damage modifier
Long -2D
Medium -1D
Short -
Point-blank +1D

This house rule has made all the difference in my games. It gives players motivation to get in closer and sometimes even farther away. It also levels the playing field for those unfortunate ships that have shorter ranged weapons, but encouraging closer engagements. And that +1D bonus at point -blank range is the perfect incentive for the cinematic broadside turbolaser raking that can devastate one or both ships participating.

I won't go back. Has anyone else tried anything similar?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Accuracy Damage Optional Rule from Rules of Engagement comes at this from the opposite direction. Rather than modifying damage based on range, it generates a bonus to Damage based on how well the shooter rolled to hit. Since accuracy increases as range decreases, the Damage bonus will increase as the range drops.

The optional rule offers two variants: a 1/1 ratio and a 5/1 ratio. I find that the 1/1 is too much and the 5/1 isn’t nearly enough, so I split the difference with a 3/1 ratio, so that for every 3 points by which the Gunnery roll succeeds, the weapon receives +1 to its Damage roll.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The Accuracy Damage Optional Rule from Rules of Engagement comes at this from the opposite direction. Rather than modifying damage based on range, it generates a bonus to Damage based on how well the shooter rolled to hit. Since accuracy increases as range decreases, the Damage bonus will increase as the range drops.

The optional rule offers two variants: a 1/1 ratio and a 5/1 ratio. I find that the 1/1 is too much and the 5/1 isn’t nearly enough, so I split the difference with a 3/1 ratio, so that for every 3 points by which the Gunnery roll succeeds, the weapon receives +1 to its Damage roll.


I give the players the option to USE that rule or not, but if its used, BOTH THEY and the enemy get to use it.. AND those who DO opt for it, prefer a 1 to 3 ratio too... Makes things a little more deadly, but NOT too much.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I give the players the option to USE that rule or not, but if its used, BOTH THEY and the enemy get to use it.. AND those who DO opt for it, prefer a 1 to 3 ratio too... Makes things a little more deadly, but NOT too much.

I like to keep it always-on, because it better represents the luck factor of someone hitting just the right weak spot by accident. Having a high Gunnery skill just means the character has the skills to make it happen more often.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Range affecting weapon damage Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
...Has anyone else tried anything similar?

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
The Accuracy Damage Optional Rule from Rules of Engagement comes at this from the opposite direction. Rather than modifying damage based on range, it generates a bonus to Damage based on how well the shooter rolled to hit. Since accuracy increases as range decreases, the Damage bonus will increase as the range drops.

The optional rule offers two variants: a 1/1 ratio and a 5/1 ratio. I find that the 1/1 is too much and the 5/1 isn’t nearly enough, so I split the difference with a 3/1 ratio, so that for every 3 points by which the Gunnery roll succeeds, the weapon receives +1 to its Damage roll.

I give the players the option to USE that rule or not, but if its used, BOTH THEY and the enemy get to use it.. AND those who DO opt for it, prefer a 1 to 3 ratio too... Makes things a little more deadly, but NOT too much.

And as another option, I prefer a 1 to 4 ratio.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used the increased damage based on the to hit roll from Rules of Engagement (one of the best of the WEG supplements IMO), but I typically use it only as a hero factor for my players against nameless minions.

However, my concern was too much damage from long range, so that rule not only doesn't help, it actually hurts. Even at long range, it is not that difficult to hit a target. A somewhat lucky shot with a fairly modest to hit roll will cause even more damage, resulting in battles ending at 72 space units apart...

I have one player who hates the reduced damage at long range, but imementung it has resulted in the battles 'feeling' right in the duration, number of volleys, and result in getting the ship's in to medium and short range more often.

I love the Age of Sail theme and this is really more of my attempt to allude to it, even if the technology present in Star Wars, it is still equal parts serial, action, fantasy, and science fiction. Getting ships close also opens to possibility of boarding actions... my players know they should invest a few CPs into combat skills just in case. Those pressed Imperial uniforms might get messy from time to time.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of it depends on whether you view the ranges in the game as maximum range or effective range. If a shot is petering out by the time it reaches Long Range, then sure, a reduction in damage would be appropriate. However, if Long is just the point at which accuracy decreases below a certain standard, then there is still a good chance the shot will keep going with enough force to cause damage.

Personally, because of how almost no weapon actually has a reduction in Damage at Long Range, I went the Effective Range route, then came up with the Marksman Advanced Skill to allow skilled shooters to hit beyond Long Range. I could potentially see a reduction in damage being applicable here, since loss of energy would be one of the factors a Marksman would need to compensate for.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
A lot of it depends on whether you view the ranges in the game as maximum range or effective range. If a shot is petering out by the time it reaches Long Range, then sure, a reduction in damage would be appropriate. However, if Long is just the point at which accuracy decreases below a certain standard, then there is still a good chance the shot will keep going with enough force to cause damage.

Personally, because of how almost no weapon actually has a reduction in Damage at Long Range, I went the Effective Range route, then came up with the Marksman Advanced Skill to allow skilled shooters to hit beyond Long Range. I could potentially see a reduction in damage being applicable here, since loss of energy would be one of the factors a Marksman would need to compensate for.


You make some excellent points about effective range and accuracy versus force. However, I am still trying to adjust the massive distance versus the speed of the ships. I could simply reduce the ranges of the weapons, but I didn't want to diverge that far from the RAW. I do double all sensor ranges except for Focus however, but that is a relatively simple fix.

Even with character scale weapons, even simple blaster pistols have a crazy long range. I have to say, I never had a concern with the ranges when I ran games more abstractly, but this darn tactical map based game style really demonstrates the true ranges to scale. I love the tactical maps, graphics, and game play, but you quickly realize you would never need a blaster rifle unless you are engaged in an open field battle.

I know, self inflicted problems...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, though, for the most part, the ranges aren't all that insane, even by modern standards. A lot of modern rifles have effective ranges beyond the maximum listed range of blaster rifles in the SWU. The M16, for example, has a maximum range of 2,700 meters and an effective range of 450 meters. "Lethal" range is 900 meters. If a round stops being considered lethal at double its effective range, then it's pretty evidently carrying a lot of energy even past the point of normal accuracy.

Now, this does require some assumptions on my part, in that Firearms (which ostensibly must obey similar physics to modern projectile weapons) are given the exact same stats as Blaster weapons. I doubt that WEG was really thinking of the implications when they wrote up stats like this, but the fact remains that, if we're going by the evidence of the rules, Blasters and Firearms must have similar firing / ballistic (assuming ballistics are applicable to energy weapons) characteristics.

Granted, there are some outliers, like the Blaster Pistol's 120-meter range. Having shot pistols, it's hard to picture that level of accuracy beyond exceptionally rare deadeye shooters. That's like standing at the goalposts of a football (American) field and hitting the other goalpost at the opposite end. I've fired pistols, and hitting a target that far out would require a serious pistol or a serious shooter. Or more likely both. Stuff like that is why I did my blaster stat re-write where I swapped the ranges on the Blaster Pistol and the Sporting Blaster Pistol, with the idea being that the Sporting has a longer barrel (more galven circuits) that helps maintain the beam's cohesion over longer distances, but at a cost in Damage.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I give the players the option to USE that rule or not, but if its used, BOTH THEY and the enemy get to use it.. AND those who DO opt for it, prefer a 1 to 3 ratio too... Makes things a little more deadly, but NOT too much.

I like to keep it always-on, because it better represents the luck factor of someone hitting just the right weak spot by accident. Having a high Gunnery skill just means the character has the skills to make it happen more often.


I see it like "Critical hits" in 2e adnd.. ITS a think the PLAYERS choose whether to use or not, knowing full well, THEY CAN RECEIVE THEM just as often as they give them out to the baddies...
So the lethality of it being used, is ON THEIR SHOULDERS...
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the range modifiers here, a lot!

I have a few thoughts on the matter as well.

If we look at the ranges of a weapon, lets say a DL-44 we see a range listed
of 50-75 meter with 75 meter being max.

I have always seen star wars combat as more or less close quarter combat or at best close ranges as n seldom we see anything than mounted weapins making shots over ranges in 500+ meters.

However I am quite sure that a good enough shooter, aka a player character "hero" would be able to roll well enough or shoot well enough to maybe exptend this, and I can see this extended to extrme ranges.

however if we look at a carbine, 200 meter range roughly and some upto 350 and more meters and the rifles more or less the same we know from several other systems that ranges are listed from clost to long in most cases, and with room for the point blank and the extreme ranges.

I can see that with little differences from weapon to weapon, most categories have a "set" range band from a few meters and uptp a few hundres, but We also know that just becuse a rifle has an effective range, it also have a maximum range.

A M-16 is effective to about 400meters, but the bullet is deadly upto closer to a mile.
just becuse you can not see it does not make the "bullet" any weaker on impact, however distance do matter and eventually will slow doen any projectile.

So I am in the camp that loves the ranges and penalties/bonues made by thread starter here, awesome!
But I am also in the camp of mybe extending the table and maybe even adding other opetions, like what will scopes do, what will a stable shooting platfrom do, like a bipod, how about power on the very few "stealth" blasters, normally a supressed gun is slightly less powerfull

I suggest maybe even skills or specilaizations that pushes the band, like I am specilized in Sniper rifles, I can shoot at long range (as pr the table) but I shoot at the medium penatly etc.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I see it like "Critical hits" in 2e adnd.. ITS a think the PLAYERS choose whether to use or not, knowing full well, THEY CAN RECEIVE THEM just as often as they give them out to the baddies...
So the lethality of it being used, is ON THEIR SHOULDERS...

You're letting players... choose whether or not bad things might happen to them?

Who are you, and what have you done with garhkal?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I give the players the option to USE that rule or not, but if its used, BOTH THEY and the enemy get to use it.. AND those who DO opt for it, prefer a 1 to 3 ratio too... Makes things a little more deadly, but NOT too much.

You're letting players... choose whether or not bad things might happen to them?

Who are you, and what have you done with garhkal?

Not exactly. He is allowing players to choose whether something bad might happens equally to PCs and NPCs.

Mamatried wrote:
I like the range modifiers here, a lot!
Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Whill wrote:
...I prefer a 1 to 4 ratio.

I have used the increased damage based on the to hit roll from Rules of Engagement (one of the best of the WEG supplements IMO), but I typically use it only as a hero factor for my players against nameless minions.

In my suggested rule, I included the option for the GM to make attacks by mooks ineligible for the damage bonus. I thought removing it from all NPCs was too unbalancing, so I am in between you and garhkal in that respect. I feel that if everyone doesn't get the bonus, then important NPCs should get it along with the PCs.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
However, my concern was too much damage from long range, so that rule not only doesn't help, it actually hurts. Even at long range, it is not that difficult to hit a target...

But at long range, it is still more difficult, which means that the same attack roll will be less over the difficulty number than it would be at a shorter range, which means less bonus damage if using skill-based damaged. Just saying.

But sure, if that is not enough of a difference for you, then I can understand wanting to reduce damage at long range.

CRMcNeill wrote:
A lot of it depends on whether you view the ranges in the game as maximum range or effective range. If a shot is petering out by the time it reaches Long Range, then sure, a reduction in damage would be appropriate. However, if Long is just the point at which accuracy decreases below a certain standard, then there is still a good chance the shot will keep going with enough force to cause damage.

I view blaster bolts as petering out. I feel -2D at long and -1D at medium is too much of a damage reduction, but I may implement -1D at long for blaster weapons.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I could simply reduce the ranges of the weapons, but I didn't want to diverge that far from the RAW. I do double all sensor ranges except for Focus however, but that is a relatively simple fix.

Even with character scale weapons, even simple blaster pistols have a crazy long range. I have to say, I never had a concern with the ranges when I ran games more abstractly, but this darn tactical map based game style really demonstrates the true ranges to scale. I love the tactical maps, graphics, and game play, but you quickly realize you would never need a blaster rifle unless you are engaged in an open field battle.

I know, self inflicted problems...

In the theater of the mind, I have no issue with the range of ships because in the minds eye can instantaneously cut between enemy ship close-ups, PC ship close-ups, and vast overviews. Wink I do not find longer range space combat any less exciting, but I probably would if the damage were reduced too much.

From a tinkerer GM, your signifiant range-based damage reductions to get pieces closer together on the map (and doubling of sensor ranges) is already too diverged from RAW for my tastes. It seems you're on the verge of playing a different game, but of course that's ok as long as you and your group are having fun.

CRMcNeill wrote:
The thing is, though, for the most part, the ranges aren't all that insane, even by modern standards... Stuff like that is why I did my blaster stat re-write where I swapped the ranges on the Blaster Pistol and the Sporting Blaster Pistol, with the idea being that the Sporting has a longer barrel (more galven circuits) that helps maintain the beam's cohesion over longer distances, but at a cost in Damage.

I really like your work with blaster weapons, and recommend to others reading this to look at it.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if modifying ranges or damage codes is that far off RAW to be considered a new game. The sensor ranges are just plain ridiculous, as most ships can fly right out of their own maximum sensor range in one turn at all-out or practically shoot beyond it. That's where playing loose with the ranges as a GM makes more thematic sense. But then again, isn't increasing the sensors range just a quantifiable manifestation of the very same practice?

I did get a chance to see CRMcNeill's modified rules for blasters and love them. I especially like the repeaters, as the flat higher damage never quite felt right.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I see it like "Critical hits" in 2e adnd.. ITS a think the PLAYERS choose whether to use or not, knowing full well, THEY CAN RECEIVE THEM just as often as they give them out to the baddies...
So the lethality of it being used, is ON THEIR SHOULDERS...

You're letting players... choose whether or not bad things might happen to them?

Who are you, and what have you done with garhkal?


There's many instances if i have an alternate rule (or there exists one in a book), that i let the CHOICE of use it, or use the RAW, go to the players.

Such as in one SW game, i was using a DM's HR (that later on i adapted to my own), for melee weapon damage, that if you CHOSE TO GO PAST the max limit, you risked breaking said melee weapon. I gave the choice of use it or not, to the players. 5 of the 7 said no, 2 said yes, so the 'vote' was defeated..
Then several groups later, i offered it up again to a 5 player table, 4 said YES, one said NO.. So the 'option was in'..
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