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Force User's Handbook
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forceally wrote:
Will, what do you mean by RP library? If you mean replacing what currently available - the one that's cut off at the end, then okay.

Yes, the RP Library is the Rancor Pit downloads page. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forceally wrote:
Shootingwomprats, I have to admit I wasn't expecting those covers. At first, I didn't recognize who was in the top one. But now I do. Considering I'm going beyond Jedi, dark Jedi, and Sith, the Bendu one might be more appropriate.


Hopefully it was a pleasant surprise then. As I said, just meant as "mock-ups".

Forceally wrote:
For the moment, I'm more interested in your opinion on the two Blazing Chain powers I came up with.


You want notes, you get some notes: Panic & Force Directed Shot. You will also see on the last page my updated versions of the powers.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to get to a computer so I can pull up The Unknown Regions, my work, and your notes side by side and make a proper comparison.

I can address one issue right now. We've seen Force power descriptions with the phrase Required Powers. That tells me you must learn those powers first before you can learn a specific power. If a power has two prerequisites, and one of the prerequisites has two of its own that are distinct from the third, you need to know all three first. Before you can learn Panic, you need to know Fear, and to learn Fear, you need to know Aura of uneasiness. You have no issues with that. For Blaster bolt guidance, you need to know Force shot, and I think for that you need to know concentration and telekinesis. So you need to know all three before you can learn Blaster bolt guidance. It's more for completeness than anything. I've seen d6 conversions for Jedi who have d20 stats where when they list Force powers, you see advanced powers listed, but not all the prerequisites for these powers. For example, I see projective telepathy and receptive telepathy listed, but not life detection or life sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forceally wrote:
I need to get to a computer so I can pull up The Unknown Regions, my work, and your notes side by side and make a proper comparison.

I can address one issue right now. We've seen Force power descriptions with the phrase Required Powers. That tells me you must learn those powers first before you can learn a specific power. If a power has two prerequisites, and one of the prerequisites has two of its own that are distinct from the third, you need to know all three first. Before you can learn Panic, you need to know Fear, and to learn Fear, you need to know Aura of uneasiness. You have no issues with that. For Blaster bolt guidance, you need to know Force shot, and I think for that you need to know concentration and telekinesis. So you need to know all three before you can learn Blaster bolt guidance. It's more for completeness than anything. I've seen d6 conversions for Jedi who have d20 stats where when they list Force powers, you see advanced powers listed, but not all the prerequisites for these powers. For example, I see projective telepathy and receptive telepathy listed, but not life detection or life sense.



many of the writeups with requirement discrepencies I think boils down to characters being written with the powers we see them use, and thus we have the "these are the powers XX uses, it can be assumed that XX knows more powers" etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forceally wrote:
... Required Powers. That tells me you must learn those powers first before you can learn a specific power.

For Blaster bolt guidance, you need to know Force shot, and I think for that you need to know concentration and telekinesis. So you need to know all three before you can learn Blaster bolt guidance.


Yup, I am tracking and understand.

Here is a list of the basic Force powers you require to learn Force Guided Shot. To the right of an arrow are powers required for those powers as well.
    1. Absorb/Dissipate Energy
    2. Combat Sense -> danger sense, life detection
    3. Concentration
    4. Force shot -> sense Force, life sense -> life detection
    5.Telekinesis

For now, lets ignore those powers to the right as they are not the choices you have made for requirements, but are ancillary.
    1. Absorb/Dissipate Energy: Force Guided Shot is not dissipating or changing the energy of a projectile in order to guide it towards the target.
    2. Combat Sense: Absolutely, 100% agree.
    3. Concentration: I can see Force Guided shot having elements of Concentration. Not sure it rises to the level of requiring intimate knowledge of that power. Combat Sense feels like it covers this element of Force Shot better.
    4. Force Shot: The two powers are very similar, though I feel Force Shot is the more advanced version. If we agree on that, then having it as a requirement is similar to learning physics before you take algebra.
    5. Telekinesis: Absolutely, 100% required for this power.

My recommendation for requirements looks like this:

Required Powers: Combat sense (danger sense, life detection), telekinesis

Not much of a difference, but it does remove three required and two ancillary powers:
    Absorb/Dissipate Energy
    Concentration
    Force shot
    Life sense
    Sense Force

My new write-up for this Force power looks like this:

Force Directed Shot (ShootingWompRat's version)
Sense Difficulty: Easy modified by proximity (to target location)
Alter Difficulty: Moderate modified by proximity (total range of shot)
Required Powers: Combat sense, danger sense, life detection, telekinesis
Effect: You use the Force to alter the flight of the projectile being fired or thrown. As an action, select a spot within 20 meters of the character and in line-of-sight. Use this location to determine target cover modifiers if any. When calculating the range, measure the distance from the Force adept to the the observation location then add the distance from the observation location to the target. This power requires focus and is the only action other than the shot that can be performed in the round. The character can still use reactive defenses.

Example: Shi’arra wants to shoot at a group of slavers hiding in a patch low lying rocks and shrubs. She finds a spot 15 meters from her present location that would give a clear shot at least one of the slavers. The range from that spot to the target is 30 meters. Shi’arra makes a blaster skill roll against the difficulty of her weapon at 45 meters instead of 30, but she does so without an additional difficulty modifier for cover.

Note: This power is typically known only to members of the Blazing Chain.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You understand where I'm coming from with the prerequisites and you agree. Good.

As for what you're saying about Force Directed shot/Blaster bolt guidance, again, I need to get to a computer and read the original entry as well as the Force powers PDF that we're all familiar with and reread Force shot. I can't say anything more until I do.

I saw the other powers Force Haze and elusive target. For the latter, I just thought it was enhance attribute added to your dodge skill. I do have a write up for Force Haze. It's in the Jedi section of my work. Let me know what you're opinion of that is.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forceally wrote:
I saw the other powers Force Haze and elusive target. ... I do have a write up for Force Haze. It's in the Jedi section of my work. Let me know what you're opinion of that is.


Force Haze (Saga Core Rulebook p.40-41)
1. You can spend a Force Point as a standard action to create a "haze" that hides you and your allies from the perceptions of others.
2. You can hide a number of creatures in line of sight equal to your class level.
3. Make a Use the Force check and compare the result to the Will Defense of any opponent that moves into line of sight of any creature hidden by your Force haze. If your check result beats the opponent's Will Defense, all hidden creatures are treated as if they had total concealment against that opponent.
4. The Force haze lasts up to 1 minute but is dismissed instantly if anyone hidden by the Force haze makes an attack.
Prerequisite: Clear Mind

1. Requires an action.
2. Hide a number of targets based on level/power of character.
3. Opposed will roll/altering target perceptions.
4. Lasts a set number of rounds or until dismissed or a hidden target makes an attack.

Haze (Force User's Handbook p.33)
Source: Converted from the Jedi Sentinel talent Force Haze in the Saga Edition Core Rulebook
Sense Difficulty: Moderate
Alter Difficulty: Target’s control or Perception
Required Powers: Affect mind, dim another’s senses, life detection, life sense, obscure, projective telepathy, receptive telepathy, sense Force
Effect: This power, a favorite amongst Jedi sentinels and Sith assassins, allows the user to create a “haze” around his or her body, making it difficult for enemies to detect the user. Enemies affect by this power receive a -1D penalty to all Perception rolls made to detect the character. The range is limited to a hundred meters, and this lasts only a minute.

The Force-user can use this power on others, so long as the target is within a hundred meters of the Force-user. Using this power in such a way adds +5 to all difficulty rolls.

Prerequisite Breakdown:
    1. Affect Mind
    2. Obscure -> Dim Another's Senses
    3. Projective Telepathy -> Receptive Telepathy -> Life Sense -> Life Detection
    4. Sense Force

1. Affect Mind: Haze is a use of this power, "This power is used to alter a character’s perception so that he ... fails to see what the Jedi doesn’t want him to see." It also affects a single person per use of the skill, "The power is normally on one target; two or more targets can only be affected if the power is used two or more times."
2. Obscure: Very similar to the Haze power, but enough different. I would say they are about equal. I can see keeping it as a prerequisite or removing it.
3. Projective Telepathy: Maybe, but if so, it should be a prerequisite for Dim Another's Senses and Affect Mind, and is not. I would toss it out.
4. Sense Force: The use of the power is not related to sensing the amplitude of the Force in an area.

Suggested prerequsites: Affect mind, dim another's senses, obscure

Force Haze (ShootingWompRat's version)
Control Difficulty: Moderate modified by proxiity
Sense Difficulty: Opposed by targets Control or Perception, -3 for each additional target
Alter Difficulty: Difficult, +3 for each additional ally
Required Powers: Affect mind
This power may be kept "up".
Effect: You can create a "Haze" that hides you and your allies from the perception of others. You can hide a number of creatures in line of sight equal to the D you have in Alter. Any opponent that moves into line of sight of anyone hidden by Force Haze, makes a opposed search check versus the Force adepts alter check. If successful, all hidden creatures are treated as if in full cover (cannot be seen). Force Haze is dismissed instantly if anyone hidden by the Force Haze makes an attack or moves at Cruising or faster.
Sources: Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook Saga Edition (p.40-41 "Jedi Guardian Talent Tree"), D6 mechanics by +Oliver Queen

Forceally wrote:
... elusive target ... I just thought it was enhance attribute added to your dodge skill.


That is certainly one way to look at it. Though I really like the mechanic as presented in Saga Core Rulebook and IMO ported over really well. Also, allowing the power to be "kept up" is nice too, especially as it counts towards MAPs. I even started using the +5 modifier when shooting into melee in my games.

If you wanted to replace the static numbers you could make them both +1D to the range difficulty modifier. The Elusive Target modifier is added to the range difficulty, treat the shooting into melee modifier as cover.

Example: Shooting into melee at medium range (15) gives a +1D (rolls 3) and the target has the power Elusive Target "up" for another +1D (rolls 5) modifier. 15 + 5 = 20 + 3. 20-23 hits the ally in melee, 24+ hits the target.

Elusive Target (Saga Core Rulebook p.40)
When fighting an opponent or multiple opponents in melee, other opponents attempting to target you with ranged attacks take a -5 penalty. This penalty is in addition to the normal -5 penalty for firing into melee (see Shooting or Throwing into a Melee, page 161), making the penalty to target you -10.

Elusive Target (ShootingWompRat's version)
Sense Difficulty: Easy
This power may be kept "up".
Effect: When fighting an opponent or multiple opponents in melee, other opponents attempting to target you with ranged attacks recieve a +5 modifier to their difficulty. This penalty is in addition to the normal +5 penalty for firing into melee, making the penalty to target you -10.
Sources: Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook Saga Edition (p.40 "Jedi Sentinel Talent Tree"), D6 mechanics by +Oliver Queen
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Forceally wrote:
Will, what do you mean by RP library? If you mean replacing what currently available - the one that's cut off at the end, then okay.

Yes, the RP Library is the Rancor Pit downloads page. Thanks.

Updated. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm at a computer now. I'm putting various files on Google Drive so I can access them on my smartphone later.


Let's get started with the Force Directed Shot. We agree on combat sense, telekinesis, and any prerequisites associated with them. That leaves absorb/dissipate energy, concentration, Force shot, and sense Force. I thought that concentration was a prerequisite of Force shot, but I was wrong, so I'm amenable to discarding that. Force shot increases the accuracy of missile weapons, like rockets and presumably grenades. From The Unknown Regions, with Force Directed Shot, "You use the Force to alter the flight of your blaster bolt, projectile, or similar missile from a thrown or ranged weapon". It seems to me that you're sensing where the target is - even when the target is under cover - with Force shot, so you can aim your rocket better. With Force Directed Shot, you sense where the target is, and then telekinetically guide your shot - blaster, projectile, or missile - to the target's location. Thus, to use Force Directed Shot, you should know Force Shot. And since sense Force is a prerequisite for Force shot, if the latter stays in, so does the former.
As for absorb/dissipate energy, I only included it because you can use Force Direct Shot on blaster bolts. You can use absorb/dissipate energy to absorb, dissipate, or deflect blaster bolts like Darth Vader did. I also created a Force power called Deflect Energy that would allow one to deflect blaster fire barehanded like Vader did, but the Jedi can redirect it back at the shooter like he would with a lightsaber. One can also use Deflect Energy to stop a lightsaber barehanded. Satele Shan did that against Darth Malgus' lightsaber in the Hope trailer for The Old Republic Video Game. I wouldn't include deflect energy as a prerequisite for Force Directed Shot, but I still think absorb/dissipate energy should be considered for inclusion for the reason I stated above.


Now for Force Haze. Affect mind - we agree on. Obscure - you might be right about it being similar, but with enough difference to warrant two distinct powers. So while obscure might be out, I'm fairly certain dim another's senses should stay in. Projective telepathy - more for telepathic communication rather than influencing the mind. So yeah - I can see that's gone. Same goes for sense Force. I just thought of life detection, but your argument about projective telepathy would apply here as well. But that brings up another possibility - illusion?


I looked at the other powers in your Blazing Chain thread. Negate and Reflect - making a Control and Sense power. Couldn't understand why Sense as well at first, but you can redirect blaster fire with lightsaber combat, and that's a Control and Sense power. So you're essentially doing the same thing without the lightsaber, so okay there.


Rising Anger - shouldn't rage be a prerequisite?


Rising Panic - no prerequisites? How about fear?


Let me know how you feel about my thoughts and opinions there. Now that I can get my reference materials on my smartphone, I won't be as limited. Guess we're going to be working together for the foreseeable future.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forceally wrote:
Let's get started with the Force Directed Shot. ... Force shot increases the accuracy of missile weapons, like rockets and presumably grenades. ... It seems to me that you're sensing where the target is - even when the target is under cover - with Force shot, so you can aim your rocket better. With Force Directed Shot, you sense where the target is, and then telekinetically guide your shot - blaster, projectile, or missile - to the target's location. Thus, to use Force Directed Shot, you should know Force Shot. And since sense Force is a prerequisite for Force shot, if the latter stays in, so does the former.


My take is that Force Directed Shot and Force Shot are they are so similar one should not be a requirement to use the other and vice versa. To me its like saying you need to know how to turn a doorknob to the left and right or you can't turn it at all.

Forceally wrote:
... absorb/dissipate energy ... because you can use Force Direct Shot on blaster bolts. You can use absorb/dissipate energy to absorb, dissipate, or deflect blaster bolts like Darth Vader did.

... I still think absorb/dissipate energy should be considered for inclusion for the reason I stated above.


We agree that at the heart of Force Directed Shot the Force adept is using telekinetics to direct a projectile. The power is effective on enegy bolts and physical projectiles, which are not affected by Absorb/Dissipate Energy. that is why I would not include it.

Again, I don't see how this affects non-energy projectiles.

Forceally wrote:
Satele Shan did that against Darth Malgus' lightsaber in the Hope trailer for The Old Republic Video Game.


I remember the first time I saw that in the trailer, I was like, "HOLY SH!T THAT WAS AEWESOME!"

Forceally wrote:
Now for Force Haze.

... Obscure - you might be right about it being similar, but with enough difference to warrant two distinct powers. ... dim another's senses should stay in.


I see why you want Dim Another's Senses. The reason I advocate tossing out is how Force Haze operates. "Haze" is a bad choice of words for the title of this power as it gives the impression that a fog appears and gives cover. But it does not, it makes the target believe no one is there.

Dim Another's Senses lowers a target's perception to notice. Whereas Affect Mind circumvents the target's normal perception and tells it nothing is there. To me this better fits what Force Haze does. Its also the reason I would toss it, seeing as for some reason Affect Mind does not have it as a requirement. In fact it has no requirements, but does require two Force skills instead of two.

Forceally wrote:
But that brings up another possibility - illusion?


I could see the inclusion of Illusion but would suggest no. To me the key to finding appropriate prerequisites is to find those powers that are direct building blocks to the final power.

Forceally wrote:
I looked at the other powers in your Blazing Chain thread ...

Rising Anger - shouldn't rage be a prerequisite?


I am not sure how meditating on the Dark Side to understand its ebbs, flows and direction for the character is a requirement for mentally dominating/scaring your enemies.

Forceally wrote:
Rising Panic - no prerequisites? How about fear?


I explained this in the comments of the document I shared, "Panic & Force Directed Shot".

Panic & Force Directed Shot wrote:
This power mirrors Panic nearly exactly. Where Fear limits the number of actions a target can perform, Panic makes them run away if a high enough effect can be managed. I see these as related/complimentary powers, but not a requirement.


Same idea I presented earlier about turning a doorknob left and right or you can't turn it at all. I see these as related/complementary skills but not skills required to to perform the other and vice versa.

Forceally wrote:
Let me know how you feel about my thoughts and opinions there. ... Guess we're going to be working together for the foreseeable future.


I will certainly help and make suggestions. Something can be done many different ways, there doesn't always have to one. People can disagree, still get along, and work towards a common goal. Look forward to helping. Please keep in mind, I have a ton of my own projects I am working on as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand. It's more than likely that I'll make the changes you suggested and add in the powers you created. You said in another thread that as you go through the Saga books, you're going to try and create powers associated with these other traditions. As you do that, check my work to see what powers I've come up with for those traditions. Get in touch, and we'll consult like we just did.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am very sorry that back in 2012 when Guardian_A was working on his project real life took me out of the community for many years. I hade drafted a lot of material to include that I must not have uploaded to groups as I did not see it in the books.

By any chance, did anyone that was in the Yahoo Group see and download a small text snippit I had uploaded regarding Force Ghosts? It was little more than some rough notes, but it is now lost to system damage that happened since and I was pondering revisting some of the topics that were left out and finishing them (I was surprised how much I had finished regarding the Jedi Trials).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh man, that sounds vaguely familiar. Let me take a look through my stuff. Feel free to PM me over the weekend if I don't circle back to it here.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going through what I've done doing some polishing - edits, spacing, etc. So I'll be able to get this up before Christmas. Now can anyone remind me how I'm supposed to do that again? I do have Google Drive, so I should load it up there and make a download link in the thread?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forceally wrote:
I'm going through what I've done doing some polishing - edits, spacing, etc. So I'll be able to get this up before Christmas. Now can anyone remind me how I'm supposed to do that again? I do have Google Drive, so I should load it up there and make a download link in the thread?

That's how I do it. Anyone who has the link will be able to access it.
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