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Commanding a Capital Ship in Combat
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the contrary: I've propsed this exact apication of the tactics skill before. I think its the only way in which command skill makes any sense in a combat scenario at all.

I put a couple of other uses for tactics in the tactical thread, including ways to boost initiative and ways to foil ennemy strategies (such as avoiding an ambush even if you have no advance intel concerning it).

Most of what I wrote is a first draft with very little refinement, but it could inspire more ideas. Its should be in the first post, IIRC.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My only quibble (and this is a D6-in-general thing, not specific to this thread) is that its hard to come up with benefits that aren't just bonuses on rolls.

Some options that other systems use include re-rolls, additional actions, and bonuses to rolls that cannot normally be raised (such as initiative or a basic perception check or a sstrenght roll for damage, etc)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
My only quibble (and this is a D6-in-general thing, not specific to this thread) is that its hard to come up with benefits that aren't just bonuses on rolls.

Some options that other systems use include re-rolls, additional actions, and bonuses to rolls that cannot normally be raised (such as initiative or a basic perception check or a strength roll for damage, etc)

That simplicity is part of the attraction for some people.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving this a bump on account of some interest being expressed in it. Some of what I've done here has already been incorporated into my various stat write-ups, in the form of the Command Difficulty modifier that can be found in the House Rule section at the bottom of the individual stats. This modifier is applied to the Difficulty for the Command skill (almost always Very Easy, as navies aren't going to put someone they don't trust in command of a warship). From there, I listed some additional possible modifiers in the OP, but some of them have morphed into other rules, like my Crew Quality modifiers or Crew Casualty penalties.

As such, the most applicable remaining penalties will likely be these:
    +5 if Captain is Untried (No Combat Experience)
    +5 if Captain has been in command of the ship for less than 1 month (negated if Captain has a successful combat victory within that month)
    -5 if Captain is trusted by the crew (up to three sequential combat victories)
    -10 if Captain is revered by the crew (more than three sequential combat victories)
    +5 if Captain is low ranking for position (a Commander in a Captain or Commodore's position)
    -5 if Captain is high ranking for position (a Commodore in a Captain or Commander's position)
From there, the question becomes how to apply the Command skill roll.

Command of a capital ship (or any military unit, really) is far more than what the captain does in the heat of battle. The baseline quality of the ship will be hugely dependent on how well the captain manages the ship and crew on a day-to-day basis, with regards to drilling of various shipboard tasks, keeping up with maintenance and balancing out the requirements of duty with the crew's morale. If you're running a capital ship campaign, this would require regular Command rolls - on either a daily or weekly (every 5 days in the SWU) basis - in order to either maintain your ship's Crew Skill Level (plus any Crew Quality Modifier) or improve it over time. If a captain's Command skill is too low, well, he may still be able to run the ship in combat, but the quality and caliber of the ship and crew will suffer on account of poor decisions he makes in the day-to-day operation before battle is ever joined.

I'm inclined to restrict Command rolls in combat to one roll at the beginning, which the captain can then apply to his crew's skill rolls as he sees fit. The Command skill can be re-rolled, but the Difficulty increases by one level for every re-roll, so it's best to reserve it for when you're spending a Force Point on Command. The main idea there is to incorporate a more holistic view of Command that covers all aspects of commanding a starship, the vast majority of which occur off screen, but are essential to the ship's performance in combat.

With Command throttled back, I'd lean much more heavily on this version of Tactics to represent the ability of the captain to react and respond to the evolving tactical situation of battle, without the intervening layer of translating Tactics into Command rolls to generate a bonus that's then applied to crew skills.

Basically, the Command rolls leading up to the start of the battle determine the quality of the weapon (the composite of ship and crew) in the captain's hands, as delineated by the Crew Skill Levels, the Crew Quality Modifier, the Captain's pre-rolled Command bonus and the ship's stats. That gestalt is the character that the PC brings to battle, with the captain's Tactics skill being rolled round-by-round to generate bonuses or advantages (as described in the above link) that are applied to the ship's combat rolls.

This combination would be what makes a leader like Thrawn so formidable in combat. The Chimaera at the beginning of the HttE trilogy may be inexperienced, but Thrawn is well on his way to whipping them into shape, his Command rolls will generate high bonuses, and his Tactics skill will almost certainly be generating major advantages every round.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: Commanding a Capital Ship in Combat Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:


-Each ship has a base Command Difficulty which is equal to the ship's Hull dice when converted into pips. For example, an Imperial Star Destroyer with a Hull of 7D would have a Command Difficulty of 21, while an MC80 Cruiser with a Hull of 6D would have a Difficulty of 18.


How would you modify this system of determining the Command Difficulty if also using your expanded scales? For example, a Carrack with 5D hull at frigate scale should not have a higher command difficulty than a Victory class star destroyer with 4D hull at destroyer scale.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've actually completely bypassed this rule in favor of a Difficulty based entirely on Crew Size. If you look at all my stats, the first entry in the House Rule Notes is Command Difficulty Modifier. This is applied to the base Difficulty listed under the Command skill (almost certainly Very Easy)
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Leona Makk
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am simply thrilled by this whole discussion! Its so timely to the game I am running for a couple of reasons.

My old players were the masters of blaster, dodge, and lightsaber for our wild action game....but I always wanted more space battles....so I am forcing them into more space battles.

Our groups Jedi pumped a lot of CP into his Command skill and some into Tactics but he has felt kinda useless onboard the Smuggler's Tramp Freighter. "I hope the pirates DO capture our ship....let me at them."
BUT with these rules and a crew, the Jedi could become the Admiral!

So here is the kicker; our Bounty Hunter encountered a Pirate Corellian Corvette in "The Drift." He is not the best Astrogator so he went off course with his low Astro roll in his modified star fighter. I thought it would be a good chance to have a player spot some Pirate infighting and listen in on their comms...y'know...get some free intel to take back to the rest of the group.

I thought he would hide and listen in the Drift but instead he surprised attacked the Corvette and did called shots on its engines and hyperdrive. He pulled it off! Once he disabled it...he ditched the frigate to go get the rest of the party....
So now there is a chance that the group will take over a small capital ship!
And know I have some rules for command and tactics!!!!
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Leona Makk
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
It depends on the ship. Some might already have a back up CIC/Ops center, already manned during times of war/battle, so if the bridge gets nuked, they are already to go. If they need to get it manned however, and say route stuff to it, i could easily see 5 minutes or more.


I've been hooked on the Honor Harrington series, and if you are looking for a great series that also provides a good window into the details of commanding a capital ship in space combat, I can't recommend it highly enough.

For the purposes of this conversation, however, the series goes into detail about chain of command, the importance of crew quality (training and experience), as well as the necessity of multiple backups for command and control. Ships have a bridge, auxiliary control (backup bridge), main engineering and damage control central, all of which are capable of operating the ship to varying degrees, as well as a flag bridge in case the ship is serving as a squadron or task force flagship. The officers are trained to step in if their superiors are out of action. For a ship to be left leaderless (i.e. all senior officers and command stations completely out of action) would, IMO, require the ship to be Severely Damaged, at which point it wouldn't be combat effective anyway.


Never heard of this series! I will have to give it a try. Have you read the Hornblower books or the Master and Commander series. Not sci fi of course, but great "Gun Boat Diplomacy"
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leona Makk wrote:
Never heard of this series! I will have to give it a try. Have you read the Hornblower books or the Master and Commander series. Not sci fi of course, but great "Gun Boat Diplomacy"

Oddly enough, Honor Harrington is very obviously "gender-swapped Horatio Hornblower in Space," and there's at least one "Master and Commander in Space" (David Drake's RCN Series) out there, as well.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leona Makk wrote:
I am simply thrilled by this whole discussion! Its so timely to the game I am running for a couple of reasons.

Sounds like there's more interest than I thought. I'll have to put in some thought on fleshing out some rules...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone wanted to make a campaign out of commanding a capital ship in the SWU, then a critical missing component is Morale: the confidence, enthusiasm, and discipline of a person or group at a particular time. The focus here would be on Morale as a gestalt of the fighting spirit of a particular ship's crew, which shifts over time based on both the Command skill rolls of the captain and how well the ship performs in combat (win a battle = +1 to Morale; lose a battle = -1).

What I'm picturing at the moment is a spread of 0D to 4D, with 0D being abysmal morale and 4D being unbreakable fanatics (there is, of course, room for a bigger spread, but in the interests of maintaining a uniform rule system, starting with 0D as a minimum and increasing from there).

Generally, I'm seeing the Captain's long-term Command rolls contributing over time to an increase in Morale, which in turn is stacked with Command at the beginning of a battle to generate the Command bonus to establish the ship's aggregate Skill Level for that battle.

There will also be factors beyond the Captain's control that affect morale, related to the larger galactic conflict. The Alliance, for example, doesn't have much cause on a micro-scale to have high morale, as they are badly outnumbered, undersupplied, etc. And yet, this is counterbalanced by the fact that they individually have strong belief in their cause, are well-led and well-motivated.

I haven't really hammered out exactly how this is going to work, but since I have at least two people who have expressed interest in this, I figured I'd post my thoughts to see if some feedback will jump-start my creative process...
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that there is enough Command bonuses stacked already, especially using your house rules. I for one would prefer a Morale value for the crew than may possibly modify the Command difficulties a little, but I would have a bigger impact on the crew skills directly, how efficiently they take their actions (modification to Rate of Fire, for example), and if they choose to surrender/abandon their posts.

There is a lot if potential here...


Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends greatly on how you structure it, and the ratio used to generate the pre-combat bonus. If for example, you rolled Command and Morale combined, but only got +1 pip for every 3 points of success, then you'd need a pretty sizeable dice pool to generate a meaningful bonus.
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schnarre
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..More than a bit behind on this, but I was curious how things like Jedi Battle Meditation, &/or Enhanced Coordination would affect these bonuses.

...Commanding capital ships is a lot of work even when not in combat, as there is so much going on at once!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

schnarre wrote:
..More than a bit behind on this, but I was curious how things like Jedi Battle Meditation, &/or Enhanced Coordination would affect these bonuses.

I haven't really considered it, but my initial thought would be to simply have whatever bonuses those powers generate just stack normally with the relevant Mechanical skills, with the bonuses generated as per the Powers' descriptions.

Quote:
...Commanding capital ships is a lot of work even when not in combat, as there is so much going on at once!

Indeed. In fact, it might be worth inserting a CP cost component in the "off-camera" aspects, to better represent the time and energy needed to do the job.

Welcome back, btw.
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