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Naaman
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 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Of course. But cover stops basterfire. If your intended target has cover, then you don't have a shot at all. By the definition of "cover," it is impossible to hit a target that is behind cover, even if you can see through it (think of bullet proof glass, or a force field or whatever).
In a more common case, when cover also provides concealment, the shooter has no idea when or from where exactly the target will emerge.
So, when you say "easier than if he stayed under cover," how do you (or how would you) handle attack rolls that target a character who is under cover versus who bounds from cover to cover?
To be clear, by cover I mean an obsticle which cannot be penetrated by the weapons used.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: |
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This discussion is somewhat confusing because cover and protection are game terms that mean specific things. See R&E p.94-95. Cover provides concealment (increases difficulty to hit targets) and protection can reduce or eliminate damage. Different situations can provide just cover or both cover and protection. For convenience of reference, the rules are also provided here (only very slightly tweaked from RAW).
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Naaman
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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IF he stayed under cover, the shooter would have a more difficult time (based on the % of cover) to shoot him (or consealment). IF he went to bound from cover to cover, he'd have less...
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I see. So, what word would you use to describe someone who is completely protected against blaster fire (100% cover). I call that "cover" and its what I meant when I said "from cover to cover."
The situation you describe, I might call it "partial cover." But in my prior references, "cover" always assumes complete cover.
For partial exposure, I'd probably treat it like a called shot. If I were using RAW, it would be as easy as using the called shot rules in 2RE. Or, the called shot rules I posted near the beginning of this thread.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | The way I would handle it would be to impose a penalty on attack rolls (or bonus to dodge) based on the distance between covered locations. This modifier represents the increased difficulty of trying to shoot a fast moving target during a very brief window of opportunity. |
There's actually already a method to do this in the Cover rules. Calculate the distance to be covered as a percentage of the character's maximum possible Move that round (factoring in Acceleration rules), then calculate it as a percentage of how much of the round will not be used on the Move, then round to the nearest 25% and apply the appropriate modifier from the Concealment table.
For example, in my above example, a character with a Move of 10 moves at Full Speed (base x2) towards Cover 5 meters away. At that Speed, they can move a maximum of 20 meters in a 5-second round. Since the Cover is 5 meters away, there will be 75% of the round where the character is not moving toward Cover. 75% on the Concealment table is +4D modifier to the Difficulty to hit.
EDIT: Maybe a simpler way to say this is, give the character the bonus based on how much of their Move they didn't use to get to Cover.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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The whole Dodge mechanic is frustrating in and of itself.
g's old signature used to say something along the lines of "you can't hit it if you don't know that it's there", but Dodge has the opposite problem; you can't Dodge if you can't see it coming. At best, all an unaugmented human can do is assume they're going to be shot at and act accordingly. Dodge should just be declared at the beginning of the round whether any ranged attacks happen or not.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, we operate like that in real life. When moving tactically, we don't move with the assumption that we will "dodge" a shot that is fired at us. We move in such a way as to make ourselves a "hard target," or "not worth the effort/risk."
So, a sniper, for example, may want to shoot at targets of opportunity. But he gets exactly one shot before he goes from hunter to hunted. One or two dudes with a couple of rifles don't stand much of a chance against a platoon-minus-one with machine guns and grenade launchers and SDMs of their own.
So if a target is hard to hit, it may be worth waiting for a more complacent group of enemy soldiers to stroll into their AO than risk wasting a shot on someone who is expecting to get shot at.
Likewise, how and when one moves is what I consider to be described by their "dodge" skill.
Though I would still allow "reflexive" dodges for cinematic flare.
In this case, the "tactical dude" is getting more out of his dodge skill because he understands more thoroughly the limits of blasters and other ranged attacks, etc, etc.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Though I would still allow "reflexive" dodges for cinematic flare. |
I'm more inclined to treat a Dodge roll as a summary of all the evasive action a character takes during that combat round. In fact, I'd be more inclined to do away with Dodge altogether and make it part of a broader Movement skill (like Agility).
Something along the lines of, to "dodge", you have to declare at least a High Speed Move, which is rolled against Terrain Difficulty + 10, with any overage added to the shooter's Difficulty to hit (in addition to any other modifiers). A "full dodge" would be rolled without the +10 Difficulty modifier, but only if the Dodger took no other actions apart from the Move
Reflexive "dodging" at Point Blank range would be under Defense
| Quote: | | In this case, the "tactical dude" is getting more out of his dodge skill because he understands more thoroughly the limits of blasters and other ranged attacks, etc, etc. |
I'd prefer to go for a straight Tactics roll to generate a bonus (although how one would assign the Difficulty for the Tactics roll requires some thought), which is only available to other team members on a successful Command roll.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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I used to like the idea of a tactics roll generating a bonus (based on the success of the roll). Now I see it a bit differently. Hence the "shoot on the move" mechanic I suggested above.
I am hugely in favor of an "agility" skill (or similar) doubling as the ranged reaction skill for character scale combat.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I used to like the idea of a tactics roll generating a bonus (based on the success of the roll). Now I see it a bit differently. Hence the "shoot on the move" mechanic I suggested above. |
The problem there is that it's non-transferable. The idea here would be for the team's tactical expert to take the lay of the land as to the best options for usable cover, then pass on instructions to his fellows, who will, in turn, have their own varying degrees of competence in carrying it out. They can't all have the "shoot on the move" skill, but they can still make an attempt at evasive movement if properly instructed.
And obviously, this wouldn't happen instantly, either. There's be a round or two where everyone is diving for cover, after which the tactician would take a round or two to roll Tactics and Command to generate the bonuses.
| Quote: | | I am hugely in favor of an "agility" skill (or similar) doubling as the ranged reaction skill for character scale combat. |
The main problem I have is wanting to get the numbers right. I don't want the bonus to be too good, because that's not what we see in the films. Pretty much every blaster fight between small groups that doesn't involve lightsabers devolves into everyone going to ground behind something solid. So whatever math is used to generate the Difficulty modifier applied to ranged attacks needs to insure that it will be safer for the character to get behind cover and stay there, and not be out cavorting around in the open unless absolutely necessary.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I am hugely in favor of an "agility" skill (or similar) doubling as the ranged reaction skill for character scale combat. |
Here's a thought...
Combine Running and Dodge into a single skill (Agility, if you prefer, or something similar), but then treat it as a Dice Pool, as in, the character has to decide how much dice they're going to put into making a Move, and how much they're willing to split off as a Difficulty Modifier applied to any ranged attacks made against them.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | I am hugely in favor of an "agility" skill (or similar) doubling as the ranged reaction skill for character scale combat. |
Here's a thought...
Combine Running and Dodge into a single skill (Agility, if you prefer, or something similar), but then treat it as a Dice Pool, as in, the character has to decide how much dice they're going to put into making a Move, and how much they're willing to split off as a Difficulty Modifier applied to any ranged attacks made against them. |
Not bad. Kind of a variation on the quick draw mechanic.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Not bad. Kind of a variation on the quick draw mechanic. |
Yup. I'm not a huge fan of Dice Pools, but there are a few niche applications where they're really appropriate.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe treat a Movement failure as "target falls prone" and counts as a base Difficulty target for ranged attacks, minus any modifiers for going prone.
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