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Fuel Cells
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Bulldogzeta
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
OK, cost in consumables is equal to (# of crew + # of passengers) x total days of consumables x 10 credits.

Additional fuel cells cost 500 credits each and weigh .1 tons.



Anything else?


I'll add just one item.

Military grade fuel cells. They are lighter and more compact, but cost a great deal more. There's no stats I'm aware of but I do have house rules.

House rules are that the most common grade of Military grade fuel cells are 1/2 the mass and 1/2 the size of standard fuel cells, but cost 2000 credits each. It's also possible that there are higher grade cells as well, but I've never had the subjects come up.

That's my 2 credits worth.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this.
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Captain Xenon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i rather like the fuel cells, and those other little details. they add to immersion for the starship and can help to plan actual expenses for the PCs.

really, you could have an entire adventure around the idea that the Rebel alliance needed more spare fuel cells, for faster supply of front-line ships and less down-time in dock.

starship maintenance costs are easy to deal with once you decide how to apply them. its just setting them up for the important ships that takes a little time.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Xenon wrote:
i rather like the fuel cells, and those other little details. they add to immersion for the starship and can help to plan actual expenses for the PCs.


If that's the kind of campaign you and your players want to run, then it is a good fit.


Quote:
really, you could have an entire adventure around the idea that the Rebel alliance needed more spare fuel cells, for faster supply of front-line ships and less down-time in dock.


Technically, you don't need fuel cell rules for that. The acquisition of fuel cells for the Alliance would just be the objective.


Quote:
starship maintenance costs are easy to deal with once you decide how to apply them. its just setting them up for the important ships that takes a little time.


That was a big part of the goal for the Tramp Freighters campaign, in that the actual logistics of owning and operating a starship would be brought into play. As mentioned above, the problem is how the logistical side of things can drag down gameplay.
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Random_Axe
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Tramp Freighters Guide Reply with quote

The thing to remember about the Tramp Freighters Guide is that it was a specific ruleset for a different type of campaign: for smugglers and privateers (as opposed to rebels fighting against the Empire). This is why the book had different rules for upgrading ships and stocking ships and so on, that weren't in the rest of the books. The TFG rules were meant to balance play for its type of campaign, and not necessarily be an integral part of a different kind of campaign style.

Think of the many kinds of Racing Career videogames out there, where most of your rewards come in the form of "ways to make your car run better or faster". Win your race, get money and spend it on better engine parts. This is what the TFG campaign was about. Find a cargo, run the cargo, get paid for your cargo, spend your payment on better ship parts, save a little for emergencies like bribing customs officials.

Great stuff if that was the kind of game your players wanted to be in; but if they are more into the more classic sneak-and-fight-the-Empire kinds of adventures, then the specific crunch of most of the TFG didn't balance well with the standard rules for ships and repairs and fuelling and restocking.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting, Random, as my campaign right now is kind of a cross between the two. We started out with two freighters, and have slowly been transitioning more into a group of Rebels. But as they've adventured they've tried to do the odd freight carrying job here or there.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, this came up as part of a different discussion. I recalled seeing someone do an expansion of the Fuel Cell rules a long time ago, so I decided to do some digging. I ended up finding it in the Resource Pool, a collection of concepts and stats posted in the old AOL SW-RPG group. Here it is, courtesy of Urban "Wing Commander Luna" Lundqvist.
    Alright, here is my latest attempt for fuel rules: By using the first edition rules from GG6 and modifying them to suit me, I got this result:

    ** FUEL CONSUMPTION TABLE **
    TASK FUEL CONSUMED
    Entering Hyperspace 1 Cell
    6 hours in Hyperspace 1 Cell
    Day of RealSpace ops. 1 Cell
    Ten Minutes of Combat Maneuvers 1 Cell
    Hour of Atmospheric Flight 1 Cell
    Take-off from planet 1 Cell
    Land on Planet 1 Cell


    ** AVAILABLE FUEL CELL TYPES **
    FUEL CELL WEIGHT COST AVAILABILITY TYPE
    Mark I 200 Kg 50 Cr 2 Very Old Civilian
    Mark II 150 Kg 250 Cr 1 Old Civilian
    Mark III 75 Kg 1500 Cr 2, X Old Military
    Mark IV 100 Kg 500 Cr 1 Standard Civilian
    Mark V 50 Kg 2000 Cr 3, X Standard Military
    Mark VI 10 Kg 15000 Cr 4, X Advanced Military

    Note: These fuel cells are made for starfighter-scale starships.


    ** NUMBER OF FUEL CELLS CARRIED **
    STARFIGHTERS
    Take the consumables rating, convert it into days and divide it by twelve to get the number of fuel cells carried. A starfighter is designed to use only military fuel cells, and it would be difficult to use civilian fuel cells instead of
    military.

    Example 1; X-Wing: 5 * 24 / 12 = 10 fuel cells
    Example 2; Longprobe Y-Wing: 15 * 24 / 12 = 30 fuel cells
    Example 3; TIE Interceptor: 2 * 24 / 12 = 4 fuel cells

    LIGHT FREIGHTERS
    Most stock light freighters have 50 fuel cells, but the actual number depends upon class, so there is no fixed rule. A light freighter is designed to use only civilian fuel cells, but can easily be modified to use military grade fuel cells.

    Guideline:
    YT1300 50 cells = 300h in hyper. 70 days of consumables
    ZH-10 35 cells = 210h in hyper. 70 days of consumables
    ZH-25 75 cells = 450h in hyper. 105 days of consumables
    Helix 80 cells = 480h in hyper. 20 days of consumables


    ** RECHARGING FUEL CELLS **
    CHARGING RATE, STARPORT COST PER CELL
    Trickle (1 cell/day) 5 Cr
    Standard (1 cell/hour) 10 Cr
    Fast (5 cells/hour) 50 Cr
    Emergency (20 cells/hour) Varies*

    * They're not actually recharging the cells: they're replacing the depleted cells with previously-charged cells of the same model.

    Note: Military starports double all recharging rates, but the cost is tripled.

    CHARGING RATE, FUEL SCOOP WEIGHT COST AVAILABILITY
    Small Size (1 cell/hour) 10 Ton 10000 Cr 1
    Standard Size (5 cells/hour) 15 Ton 15000 Cr 2
    Large Size (10 cells/hour) 20 Ton 20000 Cr 2

    CHARGING RATE, SOLID FUEL CONVERTERS WEIGHT COST AVAIL
    Depends upon energy content of material 5 Ton 8000 Cr 2
    Guideline: 1 cell/Kg metal or 0.1 cell/Kg wood

    CHARGING RATE, SOLAR CONVERTERS WEIGHT COST AVAILABILITY
    Small Sails (30/90 days) 5 Ton 6000 Cr 2
    Standard Sails (15/45 days) 10 Ton 12000 Cr 2
    Large Sails (5/15 days) 15 Ton 18000 Cr 3
    Note: (15/45 days) means it takes 15 days in-system, 30 days out-system, to fully recharge all of the ships fuel cells.

    CHARGING RATE, INFLIGHT REFUELING WEIGHT COST AVAILABILITY
    Retractable Probe (5 cells/hour) 200 Kg 1500 Cr 2, X
    Fixed Probe (5 cells/hour) 150 Kg 1000 Cr 2, X
    Fuel Receptacle (10 cells/hour) 100 Kg 3000 Cr 2, X

EDIT: I'm going to clean this up a bit, but I wanted to post Urban's original version for completeness.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I recalled seeing someone do an expansion of the Fuel Cell rules a long time ago, so I decided to do some digging. I ended up finding it in the Resource Pool, a collection of concepts and stats posted in the old AOL SW-RPG group. Here it is, courtesy of Urban "Wing Commander Luna" Lundqvist.[list]Alright, here is my latest attempt for fuel rules: By using the first edition rules from GG6 and modifying them to suit me, I got this result...

EDIT: I'm going to clean this up a bit, but I wanted to post Urban's original version for completeness.

Since most people don't have the 1e GG6, this is great. Just for clarification, this fuel cell rules expansion is for use in 2e, right?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Since most people don't have the 1e GG6, this is great. Just for clarification, this fuel cell rules expansion is for use in 2e, right?

Correct. The primary changes from 1E to the Luna Version are:
    -the Available Fuel Cell Types (under the RAW, there was only one size of fuel cell, weighing .1 tons and cost of 500 credits)

    -Fuel Cells for Starfighters, and having a variable number on Freighters (the Tramp Freighter rules were strictly for Light Freighters, and all ships had 50 fuel cells standard, although extra fuel cells could be purchased and installed at standard rates).

    -The Recharge Rates fo Add-On Equipment (per the 1E RAW, only the Solid Fuel Convertor and Solar Panels had rules for rates of recharge).

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FUEL CONSUMPTION TABLE
    One Fuel Cell is Consumed for every:

    Jump to Hyperspace
    6 hours in Hyperspace
    Day of Real-Space Flight
    Ten Minutes of Combat Maneuvering
    Hour of Atmospheric Flight
    Take-off from Planet to Orbit
    Descent from Orbit to Land on Planet
FUEL CELL TYPES
    Model = Weight (Cost / Availability)
    Civilian, Outdated = .2 metric tons (50 Credits each / 2)
    Civilian, Older = .15 metric tons (250 Credits each / 1)
    Civilian, Standard = .1 metric tons (500 Credits each / 1)
    Civilian, Advanced = .075 metric tons (1,500 Credits each / 2, X)
    Military, Older = .075 metric tons (1,500 Credits each / 2, X)
    Military, Standard = .05 metric tons (2000 Credits each / 3, X)
    Military, Advanced = .01 metric tons (15,000 Credits each / 4, X)

    Note: These fuel cells are made for starfighter-scale starships.
NUMBER OF FUEL CELLS CARRIED
    STARFIGHTERS
      Starfighters have 2 Standard Military Fuel Cells for every Day of Consumables.

      EXAMPLES:
        X-Wing: 1 week of Consumables (5 days) = 120 hours. 120 / 12 = 10 Fuel Cells (.5 metric tons)
        Y-Wing Longprobe: 3 weeks of Consumables (15 days) = 360 hours. 360 / 12 = 30 Fuel Cells (1.5 metric tons)
        TIE Interceptor: 2 days of Consumables = 48 hours. 48 / 12 = 4 Fuel Cells (.2 metric tons)

      A starfighter is designed to use only military fuel cells, and it would be extremely difficult to use civilian fuel cells instead of military.

    LIGHT FREIGHTERS

      Light Freighters have 1 Standard Civilian Fuel Cell for every Day of Consumables

      EXAMPLES:
        YT-1300: 2 months of Consumables = 70 days = 70 Fuel Cells (7 metric tons)
        ZH-25 Questor: 3 months of Consumables = 105 days = 105 Fuel Cells (10.5 metric tons)
        Arakyd Helix: 4 weeks of Consumables = 20 days = 20 Fuel Cells (2 metric tons)
RECHARGING FUEL CELLS
    Starport Charging Rate = Cost per Cell
    Trickle (1 cell/day) = 5 Credits
    Standard (1 cell/hour) = 10 Credits
    Fast (5 cells/hour) = 50 Credits
    Emergency (20 cells/hour) = 500 Credits*

    *At this level, the cells are not being recharged, but are actually being physically removed and replaced with pre-charged cells

    Note: Military starports double all recharging rates, but the cost is tripled.

FUEL CONVERTORS
    Solid Fuel Convertor

      Description: Converts virtually any matter into fuel cell power.

      Material Converted = Recharge Rate per Cell
      Light Material (Water, Gases, Cellulose, Plastics, etc) = .1 metric ton / cell
      Medium Material (Silicon, Iron Ore, etc) = .5 metric tons / cell
      Heavy Metals (Uranium, Plutonium, etc) = .01 metric tons.

      Size (Capacity) = Weight (Cost / Availability)
      Economy (.5 tons/hour) = 5 metric tons (8,000 credits / 1)
      Standard (1 ton/hour) = 10 metric tons (12,000 credits / 2)
      Industrial (2 tons/hour) = 15 metric tons (20,000 credits / 2)

      Note: Ship captains must arrange for the purchase of materials.

    Aero-Scoop

      Description: Allows the ship to suck in gases during atmospheric flight, which is then fed into a matter convertor to recharge power cells. Recharge rate is dependent on the size of the Aero-Scoop.

      Size (Recharge Rate) = Weight (Cost / Availability)
      Small (2 cells/hour) = 10 metric tons (10,000 Credits / 1)*
      Standard (5 cells/hour) = 15 metric tons (15,000 Credits / 2)
      Large (10 cells/hour) = 20 metric tons (20,000 Credits / 2)

      *Some starfighters (the X-Wing, B-Wing, ARC-170) are equipped with the equivalent of a Small Scoop due to the design of their engines.

    Solar Convertors

      Description: Ships may be equipped with solar converters: huge, fragile sails that absorb charged particles from solar wind.

      System Position = Recharge Rate
      Flare Zone (Mercury & Venus) = 3 cells / day
      Life Zone (Earth & Mars) = 1 cell / day
      Outer Zone (Jupiter & Saturn) = .2 cells / day
      Deep Space (Uranus and beyond) = .1 cell / day

      Sail Size (Recharge Rate Modifier) = Weight (Cost / Availability)
      Small (x1) = 5 metric tons (6,000 Credits / 2)
      Standard (x2) = 10 metric tons (12,000 Credits / 2)
      Large (x3) = 15 metric tons (18,000 Credits / 3)

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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't forgotten about the In-Flight Refueling System, but I haven't quite worked out how I want to work it, and since it wasn't a part of the original 1E Fuel Cell System, I figured I'd leave it out for now. It will show up again at some point.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with the In-Flight Refueling System is that there isn't really a clear idea of what exactly a fuel cell contains. Is it merely a large battery, or does it contain fuel of some kind? If it carries fuel, then for what type of engine? There are at least three different types of drives / power plants that I'm aware of: solar ionization, fusion and hypermatter. And then what does that power plant do? Is it basically the engine, or does it provide power to fuel the actual drive reaction in the engine? If the latter, then what does the engine use as fuel?

For the purposes of simplifying this system, I'm thinking of three general classifications...

1) Starfighters and Space Transports utilize Fusion Drives, and share common fuel, stored in a fluid state. Fuel cells carry a certain amount of fuel, which is then fed into the drives to create thrust and power.

2). The exception to this is Ion Engines, predominantly found in Sienar Fleet Systems craft, but particularly in TIE Fighters. TIE Fighters burn a different kind of fuel than Fusion drive ships, but their Wing Panels also serve as a space version of the Scoop, drawing in ionized particles for use in the drive.

3). Finally, all the Capital Ships run off Hypermatter Drives, which is effectively a Fusion Drive on steroids.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The problem with the In-Flight Refueling System is that there isn't really a clear idea of what exactly a fuel cell contains. Is it merely a large battery, or does it contain fuel of some kind? If it carries fuel, then for what type of engine? There are at least three different types of drives / power plants that I'm aware of: solar ionization, fusion and hypermatter. And then what does that power plant do? Is it basically the engine, or does it provide power to fuel the actual drive reaction in the engine? If the latter, then what does the engine use as fuel?

For the purposes of simplifying this system, I'm thinking of three general classifications...

1) Starfighters and Space Transports utilize Fusion Drives, and share common fuel, stored in a fluid state. Fuel cells carry a certain amount of fuel, which is then fed into the drives to create thrust and power.

2). The exception to this is Ion Engines, predominantly found in Sienar Fleet Systems craft, but particularly in TIE Fighters. TIE Fighters burn a different kind of fuel than Fusion drive ships, but their Wing Panels also serve as a space version of the Scoop, drawing in ionized particles for use in the drive.

3). Finally, all the Capital Ships run off Hypermatter Drives, which is effectively a Fusion Drive on steroids.

Don't forget about hyperfuel from Solo. It's a rare form of hypermatter, but in canon hypermatter is not specified to be from hyperspace like is in Legends.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Don't forget about hyperfuel from Solo. It's a rare form of hypermatter, but in canon hypermatter is not specified to be from hyperspace like is in Legends.

I prefer to think of hyperfuel more as a fuel additive than let Disneylucas kill a perfectly excellent universe-building concept.

If there was one thing I hated about Solo, that was it.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The problem with the In-Flight Refueling System is that there isn't really a clear idea of what exactly a fuel cell contains. Is it merely a large battery, or does it contain fuel of some kind? If it carries fuel, then for what type of engine? There are at least three different types of drives / power plants that I'm aware of: solar ionization, fusion and hypermatter. And then what does that power plant do? Is it basically the engine, or does it provide power to fuel the actual drive reaction in the engine? If the latter, then what does the engine use as fuel?

For the purposes of simplifying this system, I'm thinking of three general classifications...

1) Starfighters and Space Transports utilize Fusion Drives, and share common fuel, stored in a fluid state. Fuel cells carry a certain amount of fuel, which is then fed into the drives to create thrust and power.

2). The exception to this is Ion Engines, predominantly found in Sienar Fleet Systems craft, but particularly in TIE Fighters. TIE Fighters burn a different kind of fuel than Fusion drive ships, but their Wing Panels also serve as a space version of the Scoop, drawing in ionized particles for use in the drive.

3). Finally, all the Capital Ships run off Hypermatter Drives, which is effectively a Fusion Drive on steroids.


IN TLJ, didn't we see them shunting liquid fuel from the cap ships to each other/the transports?
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