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Movement and its Effect on To Hit Difficulty
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lane Arroway wrote:
Quetzacotl wrote:
Quote:
The Jogger isn't particularly more difficult to hit then a stationary object. It should only be around +2. That is because you can anticipate where the jogger will be in the future.
It's only then difficult, if he moves in a quasi random pattern or in ways you can't anticipate.


Yeah, maybe a base of +5 is too high. Still, a modifier depending on the situation is called for. The jogger example would be an easier shot than, say, a cop chasing a suspect. Erratic movements from the suspect would get a higher modifier. It's these kind of situations that separate the pro shooters from the noobs.


Isn;t that erratic movement taken into account when he makes his dodge roll?
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Lane Arroway
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say the erratic movement comes in as the suspect tries to avoid his persuer. He weaves around obstacles, turns left instead of right, etc. It's because his movements aren't predictable that make it a harder shot. When he does get shot at is when he dives for cover or something.

Personally, I think most players should hit these difficulty numbers, but it would be nice once in awhile for a player to just miss their mark so the foot chase continues.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, one thing that might be worth considering is that the faster an object is moving the less erratic it's movements will be. So we could assume that the benefits of speed are already factored in because the dodge roll stays the same.

But...if we want to add another modifier, I suggest something like a doubling system.

Something like DougRed4's method, but expanded a bit:

Say a +3 or 1D penalty for each step:
>10m/20m/40m/80m/160m/320m/640m/etc.

For Space Combats, we can replace the 10m with 1 SPACE UNIT (so >1/2/4/8/16/32)

But, realistically, these penalties should apply to the pilot of the fast craft, too.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In what manner? if you are moving fast enough, you already suffer penalties in higher maneuvering difficulties going through tough terrain (or space areas)..
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
In what manner? if you are moving fast enough, you already suffer penalties in higher maneuvering difficulties going through tough terrain (or space areas)..


In the manner of relative to speed. Any vehicle going all-out suffers the same higher maneuvering difficulties regardless of how fast they are actually moving.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah.. gotcha.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I think I've settled on a rule I like (initially, at least).

1). I'm doing away with the movement penalty rule for missiles and torpedoes. As far as I'm concerned, their short range is sufficient penalty, especially when combined with #2...

2). Use the following formula to generate Move based penalties to hit:
Shooter is in Target's Left or Right Fire Arc: +1 per Space Unit moved / round
Shooter is in Target's Front Fire Arc: +1 per 2 Space Units moved / round
Shooter is in Target's Rear Fire Arc: +1 per 3 Space Units moved / round

This is just bare bones, as there are plenty of variables to be worked out, but this is the core idea.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, version 2.0, based on some calculations.

Under the above, an A-Wing moving All-Out and being shot at from the side receives a maximum bonus of +16D to Dodge, even if all it is doing is flying in a straight line. Highly unrealistic, as even the most basic fire control computer can calculate lead...

Here is the modified version of above

1). Unchanged

2). If the shooter is in the target's Left or Right Fire Arc: Increase Difficulty by +1 for every 3 Space Units moved / round. Convert pip value to Dice if appropriate

3). If shooter is in the target's Rear Fire Arc, calculate the closing speed (i.e. how fast the two are moving towards or away from each other). For instance, if an A-Wing traveling All-Out (48 SU) is being pursued by a TIE Interceptor at High (22 SU) (since he can't fly at All-Out and fire his weapons simultaneously), the A-Wing is pulling away from him at a rate of 26 SU per round. Difficulty to hit is then increased by +1 for every 2 SU's moved per round (in this case, 13, converted to +4D+1)

If the shooter is in the target's Front Arc, use the same technique as #3, but with a Difficulty increase of +1 for every 4 SU's (as closing speeds will be much higher).

Thoughts?
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Leon The Lion
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thoughts:

I would not scale the modifiers linearly with speed. Instead, I'd use the doubling method discussed somewhere for combining actions. Set some move per round value as the minimum to produce a 1D speed penalty, than get 2D for 2x that, 3D for 8x, 4D for 16x, etc.

Seems you want to, in a simplified manner based on fire arcs, base the penalty on movement relative to attacker, not just straight target speed. That's good. But if so, a target moving more-or-less directly towards or away from the attacker will be much easier to hit than one moving laterally at the same speed, whatever the speed.

So I would not differentiate between the front and rear arc penalty, and make the front/rear penalty at least half the left/right penalty, probably even less.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. So, something like this for the left and right fire arcs:
    Target SU / round = Difficulty Increase To Hit
    1-4 = +1D
    5-8 = +2D
    9-16 = +3D
    17-32 = +4D
    33-64 = +5D
    65+ = +6D

and like this for the front and rear arcs:
    Combined Closing Speed of Target and Shooter = Difficulty Increase To Hit
    1-16 = +1D
    17-32 = +2D
    33-64 = +3D
    65+ = +4D


These dice numbers would make any vehicle traveling All-Out a much more difficulty target, but not necessarily more difficult than they would be if the pilot was using evasive maneuvers.
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Leon The Lion
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I remember correctly, in the "doubling method" 25% over the current step is worth +1, and 60% over the current step is worth +2.
So the tables would look like this:

Left/Right:
    Target SU / round = Difficulty Increase To Hit
    0 = 0
    1-2 = +0D+1
    3 = +0D+2
    4 = +1D
    5-6 = +1D+1
    7 = +1D+2
    8-9 = +2D
    10-11 = +2D+1
    13-15 = +2D+2
    16-19 = +3D
    20-25 = +3D+1
    26-31 = +3D+2
    32-39 = +4D
    40-51 = +4D+1
    52-63 = +4D+2
    64-79 = +5D
    80-102 = +5D+1
    103-127 = +5D+2
    128+ = +6D


Front/Rear:
    Combined Closing Speed of Target and Shooter = Difficulty Increase To Hit
    0-3 = 0
    4-9 = +0D+1
    10-15 = +0D+2
    16-19 = +1D
    20-25 = +1D+1
    26-31 = +1D+2
    32-39 = +2D
    40-51 = +2D+1
    52-63 = +2D+2
    64-79 = +3D
    80-102 = +3D+1
    103-127 = +3D+2
    128+ = +4D


But that may be more granularity than you're willing to go into. I'd do it, but I'm strange like that.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't want the rule to get too complicated, but if it works for you, go right ahead.
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Leon The Lion
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is, I see nothing complicated about it. More detailed than some might feel is necessary, yes, I'll give you that, but not complicated at all.

And in the spirit of avoiding unnecessary complication... My ideal would be tuning the move values in the tables so that they can be sensibly used "measurement units neutral", to utilize the same tables to compute to-hit penalties for movement for spacecraft, ground vehicles, and characters, at any scale, without the need for separate tables for each. Of course, what exact values would be considered "sensible" is a matter of taste. For example, using your current values for character-scale movement would produce very high to-hit penalties against humans even at walking speed. I don't think that's quite right, but maybe you would disagree?

Another thing that could be done to simplify things, is to use the same basic table for all fire arcs, and just say to halve (rounding down) the resulting penalty if the attacker is in the target's rear or front arc. In your case, as you want to deal only in full dice, all pips would be rounded down completely. But this depends on what one sees as more complicated: a separate table lookup for a specific situation, or having to perform a mathematic operation.

Well, as you say, to each his own.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the current rule is configured for space combat only. I haven't gotten around to working out the conversions for ground or atmospheric movement. For now, I'm just looking for a basic rule I can work with.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This occurred to me as part of another discussion:

Should the penalty also be applied to the weapons accuracy of a moving ship? If an X-Wing is making a strafing run across a capital ship at Full Speed (16 SU's), should it receive a +3D modifier to its To Hit Difficulty since it is moving so quickly?
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