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Your eyes can deceive you...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:29 pm    Post subject: Your eyes can deceive you... Reply with quote

From a gaming perspective, a character attempting a critical roll (such as hitting a thermal exhaust port with a proton torpedo) would want to maximize their roll as much as possible. As such, deliberately shutting off the targeting computer results in increased difficulty, which must in turn be offset by a bonus from Force skills. Is it possible that attempting to combine equipment bonuses with Force bonuses actually has a detrimental effect? That attempting to simultaneously depend on both the Force and one's own eyes actually penalizes the roll? If so, what form would this take?

Thoughts?
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thought is that when a character is usuing the Force that way, he isn't using the targeting computer. So he doesn't get tto stack the bonuses. Yeah, the RPG rules are written that way, but that seems to be what is happening in the films.

It's like someone who uses Kyujutsu (Japanese style archery) adding a scope to their bow. Since in Kyu the arrow is draw above the shooter's head, he doesn't aim the way western style archers do (by sighting down the arrow).


Frankly, I think the RAW has it wrong. Rather than getting a flat bonus, what I think the Jedi should be able to do is replace his ship's Fire Control with the Sense.

But then, Luke's Sense skill wasn't that high according to the RAW.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Frankly, I think the RAW has it wrong. Rather than getting a flat bonus, what I think the Jedi should be able to do is replace his ship's Fire Control with the Sense.

That certainly seems the simplest way to do it.

Quote:
But then, Luke's Sense skill wasn't that high according to the RAW.

Well, since the base difficulty for Concentration (which is what WEG presumes he was using) is Easy, he would've been iffy to beat it without spending a CP or two anyway. Of course, it is always possible that WEG made a mistake...
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Random_Axe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Luke's Proton Torpedo was not RAW Reply with quote

I think you would be making a mistake to try to judge Luke's final torpedo shot at the Death Star in actual RPG dice numerics. Especially considering Luke was a total N00b when it came to the Force. Luke's shot was cinematic GM fiat, and that's it. A dramatic moment executed at the peak battle moment; if I were the GM I would totally ditch the dice rolling at that moment because it's going to tell a story about Luke's coming of age.

Now, if you have actual PC's trying this trick on their own fighter attack, then yes you would totally take out the "fire control" dice of the ship, since they aren't being used, and sub in the PC's Sense dice, heavily subject to MAP (Flying, Sensing, Shooting, and maybe even Evading).

Just don't try to judge the "accuracy" of the RAW based on a cinematic climax that relies more on Hollywoodism than with internal logical consistency.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm inclined to disagree in that dice rolls dictate the dividing line between success and failure in this RPG. The D6 rule of thumb has always been "pick a number and roll the dice to see if you beat it", then allow the characters to roleplay their reactions to that result. If I were playing in that game, having the GM dictate the results by fiat would be getting railroaded down the GM's dictated path, rather than having to roleplay what would happen if Luke missed that shot at that pivotal moment.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
atgxtg wrote:
Frankly, I think the RAW has it wrong. Rather than getting a flat bonus, what I think the Jedi should be able to do is replace his ship's Fire Control with the Sense.

That certainly seems the simplest way to do it.

Quote:
But then, Luke's Sense skill wasn't that high according to the RAW.

Well, since the base difficulty for Concentration (which is what WEG presumes he was using) is Easy, he would've been iffy to beat it without spending a CP or two anyway. Of course, it is always possible that WEG made a mistake...


Technically luke should not have been able to concentrate on that shot anyway.. He was maneuvering down the trench (one action) and shooting (second action), so he could NOT have concentrated on the shot.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Luke's Sense skill wasn't that high according to the RAW.

My solution was to turn Force Sensitive into an attribute, so that some characters will have greater sensitivity than others. Luke, being similar in relative sensitivity to his Father, would have a Force attribute of ~6D. Stack that with his 2D in Sense, and he becomes capable of doing relatively untrained what it takes most other Force users years to achieve.
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gavin storm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well considering he had only just begun his training, shortly before destroying the Death Star .....

I did it once untrained in a rpg thread (destroying a death star type battle station)

I did notice that he wasn't good at concealing his presence in the force, in Return of the Jedi.
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Quetzacotl
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Technically luke should not have been able to concentrate on that shot anyway.. He was maneuvering down the trench (one action) and shooting (second action), so he could NOT have concentrated on the shot.
Well, if in the last part he just flew straight because there are no more weapons firing at him (because of vader) then him flying would be a free action and he could concentrate and fire.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

That certainly seems the simplest way to do it.


I'm open to other methods, but basically Luke must of had a reason for turning off the target computer, and the one that makes the most sense to be is that he didn't need it because he wasn't using it.

And Luke did shoot with his eyes closed.

Quote:

Well, since the base difficulty for Concentration (which is what WEG presumes he was using) is Easy, he would've been iffy to beat it without spending a CP or two anyway. Of course, it is always possible that WEG made a mistake...


They must of made at least one. By the RAW if Luke used Concentration he'd have lost control of his X-Wing. By the RAW you can only do ONE thing while using Concentration, yet also by the RAW a pilot must spend one action actually piloting the craft.

Oh, garhkar beat me to it. Embarassed

BTW, I know Star Warriors had a different power for Luke to use instead of Concentration..
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Luke's Proton Torpedo was not RAW Reply with quote

Random_Axe wrote:
I think you would be making a mistake to try to judge Luke's final torpedo shot at the Death Star in actual RPG dice numerics. Especially considering Luke was a total N00b when it came to the Force. Luke's shot was cinematic GM fiat, and that's it. A dramatic moment executed at the peak battle moment; if I were the GM I would totally ditch the dice rolling at that moment because it's going to tell a story about Luke's coming of age.


And if I were a player (including the onne playing Luke) I'd get up and walk away from the table and never play in that campaign again. If the GM wan'ts to tell me a story he should go buy a book, not run an RPG.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quetzacotl wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Technically luke should not have been able to concentrate on that shot anyway.. He was maneuvering down the trench (one action) and shooting (second action), so he could NOT have concentrated on the shot.
Well, if in the last part he just flew straight because there are no more weapons firing at him (because of vader) then him flying would be a free action and he could concentrate and fire.


True he had no more guns shooting him, but the terrain alone should still have required a piloting check to NOT crash anywhere at the speeds they were going at.
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The Brain
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone considered that maybe your WAY over thinking this? The TEP shot is not an adventure it's a story it is not going to conform to the rules. Even if you do then why has no one put forward the simplest explanation?

Force point.

And now the math...
Luke's starship gunnery skill 6D (Galaxy Guide 1 2nd ed) (S)
Proton Torpedo fire control 2D (T)
6+2=8 dice pool (P)

Turn off targeting computer
spend force point (F)
8-2*2=12

and if you really want to over complicate that
([S+T]-T)*F=12
And yes that bracket inside the parentheses is probably superfluous from an order of operations standpoint, but I'm just getting into the spirit of over thinking things.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use of a Force Point is already included in the description of the Force Power Concentration, in that Luke was able to use Concentration because he wasn't performing any other action, plus he spent a Force Point on top of that. The debate has diverged slightly off course in discussing whether Concentration was appropriate for the circumstances. Use of a Force Point without using Concentration does get the requisite dice numbers to make a successful shot possible, but ignores the original point that Luke deliberately gave himself a -2D penalty (at a minimum) by deliberately turning off his proton torpedo fire control (his targeting computer). The question is not whether or not he still had the dice to make the roll, but why he would deliberately penalize himself if he didn't have to.
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Quetzacotl
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
but the terrain alone
He can just fly straight towards his target.
There is no difficulty at all, this would be an easy or moderate difficutly terrain, which would allow you to fly with a free action if you drive with cruising speed (or maybe even one faster, not actually sure at what point you always have to make a roll).
There is nothing in the way, he is in the middle and there is no obstacle on a straight path toward his target.
If some of the ship parts were moving like in an asteroid feld, yeah, this would require an action.
But the Situation he is right now does not require a whole action, just a free one.

So I see no Problems with RAW when he makes:
Flying (Free Action), Concentrate (Action), Shooting (Action)

This is completely RAW.
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