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Your eyes can deceive you...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:

I've been considering allowing for multiple throttle changes using the same rule. Basically each change in speed past the first raises the difficulties a level.

I've even been considering that it really should be the changes in speed and direction that should raise the difficulty, not the actual speed. So if someone is going straight and level in open space, it really shouldn't be hard to keep control of the craft.


As is with the RAW, ground speed (personal) allows you 2 'speed shifts' up or down from where you start the round, while vehicle or space ships allow for one shift up or down.
In sparks we handle it that you can do ANY $ of shifts up or down, but each is a 'move action'. So you want to go double speed across that trench, its 2 move actions (and therefore 2 actions for MAPS).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing is, that Luke actually fired twice in what had to be the same round. Two torpedoes, one a little ahead of the other, were shown to go into the thermal exhaust port...

Yes, the point of the game system was to as closely as possible reproduce the cinematic reality of the Star Wars films, but it is not always going to be very successful at that. Some unique situations portrayed in the films may not be reproducible in game mechanics, and that is usually not an issue because you aren't playing Luke or Vader. I remember one source, I think it may have been the 1E Rules Companion, even came out and said that the rules for learning and raising Force skills do not apply to the Skywalkers because they are special cases. Nuff said.

However in the spirit of the thread, yes, it can still be fun to try to make the rules work to better support what we see on the films, even if not necessary. We're talking about the climax of my favorite movie, so I'm game...

Long before the Concentration power and its example, I interpreted the miracle shot to simply be Luke using a Force Point. The game described using Force Points as "trusting to the Force" and you don't have to be Force-sensitive to use the Force in this manner. So for most PCs it was just trusting your luck or using occasional adrenaline rushes or whatever. I go as far as it being an ability that the PC is not necessarily even conscious of. The player is aware of it, so in a case of appropriate metagaming, the player can choose when to use a FP and the PC can get the advantage of it without being aware of it. The effects and outcome become a part of the non-film SW story the gaming group is creating.

Not only being Force-sensitive but having recently began training in the use of the Force, Luke as a character was conscious of the ability that we in the real world consider manifestation of Force Points. After some urging from the ghost of Obi-Wan to let go of his conscious self and act on his human instincts, Luke consciously choose to "trust to the Force" when he turned off the targeting computer. In the film's story, turning off the targeting computer was a dramatic device that emphasized the message of not depending on technology to save humanity. Therefore, to get the game mechanical advantage of the FP in my game, you must not be able to also get technologically-based die code bonuses like fire control dice in the same round. For me, FPs work as in RAW but with that limitation.

Since PCs may not even believe in the Force or subscribe to that belief, they don't have to physically turn off the targeting computer to get the benefit of a FP. They just don't get the technology bonus dice to their roll that round. It is the same effect and outcome. Luke consciously deactivating his targeting computer wasn't as much for him as it was for us, the audience. The other thing to keep in mind is that Luke is NOT a PC and he does not have a player per se - Luke's "player" is really the screenplay. In game terms, if the scene was all rolled out by a GM, he'd be an GC, and the deactivation of the targeting computer to use the FP is just descriptive fluff from the GM. Whether actually turned off or not, the character got the benefit of the FP but not the targeting computer. The targeting computer was only physically turned off because it was a conscious choice of the character to use the Force, as opposed to a conscious choice of the GM to use a FP for a character that doesn't know he has the ability to double his skills for a round if he gives up the aid from the targeting computer.

May the Force be with us all.
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Last edited by Whill on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Long before the Concentration power and its example, I interpreted the miracle shot to simply be Luke using a Force Point. The game described using Force Points as "trusting to the Force" and you don't have to be Force-sensitive to use the Force in this manner.


Back on topic! Yay!

Okay, taking this to its conclusion, it means that any heroic character with a Force Point could make the exact same attempt at taking out the Death Star, including those who are not Force Sensitive. FPs are intended to allow heroic characters to perform seemingly impossible feats at appropriate moments through instinctive use of the Force. A Force Sensitive who is being consciously trained to sense and utilize the Force has moved beyond regular FP use into something else.

Speaking for myself, rather than simply stating by GM fiat that the Skywalker line was different and special, I made it so in their stats by converting Force Sensitive to an attribute and putting Luke and Anakin up in the 6D or 7D range, far beyond the normal realm of even other FS characters (usually down around 3D range). At the 6D-7D range for an attribute base, even a character who has only put 1D into Control and Sense skills is capable of some pretty impressive rolls right out the gate. Combined with atgxtg's proposal from the first page of allowing Jedi to use their Sense Dice in place of Fire Control, Luke would be rolling 13D-14D even before he spent a FP.

I was going to reply to some of your other points, but it seems the crux of our disagreement is on the nature and use of FPs. Apart from that, your thinking seems to parallel mine in most respects, in that the bonuses derived from the use of the Force can't be combined with technology.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use of FPs in my game have been extremely rare (I believe our Jedi used one, once).

That said, I don't recall ever reading (or considering) that they shouldn't work when in conjunction with technology. But that does totally make sense, when explained from the context of A New Hope.

Any other uses of a Force Point in the movies anyone can think of?
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Whill is onto something.

I think orginally, when the d6 RPG was written, Luke's shot of the Death Star was indeed an example of a PC using a Force Point. But later on as more Force Powers were created for the game, we got Concentration. And then still later on, as the rules were changed, we wound up with the current version that is basically non-functional.

I think quite a few of the difficulties with the RAW stems from rule changes between various editions. It would have been nice if WEG could have done a new edition when Episodes I-III were made that could have fixed some stuff, or even thrown out some of the older stuff.

I like crmcneil's idea of a Force Attribute, too, and down the road, one thing that I want to do is try and do a revised set of rules that incorporates it, and my other houserules (my vehicle maneuvering rules, FlaK rule, simpler Pilot and Repair skills, Lightsaber Forms and so on) into a streamlined version of the RPG
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we should take that force attribute talk to a new thread for it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only floated the Force Attribute as an explanation for how I would make rules for the specific situation. AFAIAC, we are still on topic.

As far as the discussion of Force Point use as applicable to this situation, I would say that there would need to be some distinction between the use of Force Points by Force Sensitives as opposed to non-FS characters.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

As far as the discussion of Force Point use as applicable to this situation, I would say that there would need to be some distinction between the use of Force Points by Force Sensitives as opposed to non-FS characters.


Oh, soo gotta use a new thread for that! I got an idea for a houserule along those lines.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
crmcneill wrote:

As far as the discussion of Force Point use as applicable to this situation, I would say that there would need to be some distinction between the use of Force Points by Force Sensitives as opposed to non-FS characters.


Oh, soo gotta use a new thread for that! I got an idea for a houserule along those lines.


I'd rather leave Force Points the way they are in the 2R&E rules and use the method you suggested back on the first page combined with a Force Attribute rule. Between you, me and Whill, there seems to be a general consensus that trusting in the Force (which, to me, is an aspect of a character's increasing dice level in Force skills) is not compatible with simultaneously trusting in technology/
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm open to discuss Force Points for Force-sensitive characters possibly being different than non-Force-using characters. I'm not opposed to the idea of using Sense instead of Fire Control, and I'm not opposed to there being a Force Power in use in Luke's shots on the Death Star, like maybe some kind of Enhance Attribute. I'm just saying Concentration as is never made sense to me, and there doesn't absolutely have to be a Force Power at work. Wedge and Lando made shots to destroy a Death Star and they aren't Force-sensitive. I couldn't count how many times FPs have been used by non-Force PCs to make some kind of miraculous shot in my Star Wars adventures (of course these are normally not quite as epic as destroying Death Stars, but still)...

garhkal wrote:
I think we should take that force attribute talk to a new thread for it.

I agree so here it is: http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=142042#142042
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'm just saying Concentration as is never made sense to me, and there doesn't absolutely have to be a Force Power at work. Wedge and Lando made shots to destroy a Death Star and they aren't Force-sensitive.

I agree with you on Concentration, but I think the circumstances surrounding the two / three different Death Star kill shots hardly invite comparison. Lando and Wedge were firing at massive pieces of equipment that would not present anything near the challenge to hit as a tiny exhaust port, and in the case of the first Death Star, one experienced fighter pilot had already made an attack run and missed. With that much on the line, if he had a Force Point to spend, it would've been appropriately heroic.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'm open to discuss Force Points for Force-sensitive characters possibly being different than non-Force-using characters. I'm not opposed to the idea of using Sense instead of Fire Control, and I'm not opposed to there being a Force Power in use in Luke's shots on the Death Star, like maybe some kind of Enhance Attribute. I'm just saying Concentration as is never made sense to me, and there doesn't absolutely have to be a Force Power at work. Wedge and Lando made shots to destroy a Death Star and they aren't Force-sensitive. I couldn't count how many times FPs have been used by non-Force PCs to make some kind of miraculous shot in my Star Wars adventures (of course these are normally not quite as epic as destroying Death Stars, but still)...

garhkal wrote:
I think we should take that force attribute talk to a new thread for it.

I agree so here it is: http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=142042#142042


So what.. a force point spent by a FU is worth more, or its easier to get it back?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worth more, if it is used to double a combined Starship Gunnery and Force Sense skill roll.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:


I'd rather leave Force Points the way they are in the 2R&E rules and use the method you suggested back on the first page combined with a Force Attribute rule. Between you, me and Whill, there seems to be a general consensus that trusting in the Force (which, to me, is an aspect of a character's increasing dice level in Force skills) is not compatible with simultaneously trusting in technology/


I agree with the consensus. And like I said before I do want to (someday) revise the force powers so that they all work basically the same way. That is the power adds, subtracts , or substitutes the a Force Skill (or part of it) to an existing skill or attribute.
There are so many powers where the character uses the Force to augment an existing ability that I think one method of application would help.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'm just saying Concentration as is never made sense to me, and there doesn't absolutely have to be a Force Power at work.


Whill, do you think doing Concentration as listed in the books works if you just ignore the second part (as discussed here, where you ignore the line "The Jedi receives no bonus if anything else is done in that round, including duplicate uses of the same skill or dodges or parries.")? Or does something like SWR's proposed alternate Concentration power (listed in that same thread) make more sense?
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